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Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
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Mikado
Other › Tested Out New Scorpion 4020 and X-Era 4025
03-21-2009 08:52 PM  8 years agoPost 1
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi All,

I just got back from testing out my 6S Logo 500 with Scorpion 4020-1100 and my 8S TRex 600E with X-Era 4025-830.

All I can say is holy crap, my TRex has come alive. It had pop like never before and was just jumping. Tic tocs were super abrupt and rolling circles were a breeze thanks to the tremendous collective authority. That X-Era motor is nothing short of amazing. I had to dial my Jazz down to 63% to get the headspeed down to 2180. But the Jazz (nor the motor) never got warm. The Outrage 8S 4200 battery got to about 120F.

The Logo 500 with the Scorpion 4020 was pretty good. It had a different sound than my Z-30 I replaced(which was super quiet). But the tic tocs lacked the authority I was expecting.

Here's some data (ambient was 57 F):

Motor: X-Era 4025/2Y-830 (came down about 100 F)
ESC: Jazz 55-10-32 with no heatsink(came down about 100 F)(63% governed)
Battery: Outrage 8S 4200 mah (came down about 120 F)
Heli: TRex 600E (weight 7 lbs 11 oz)(13 tooth pinion)
Headspeed: 2180 rpm

Motor: Scorpion 4020-1100 (came down about 115 F)
ESC: Jazz 80-6-18 with heatsink (came down about 115 F)(70% governed)
Battery: Outrage 6S (came down about 110 F)
Heli Logo 500 (weight 6 lbs 5 oz)(15 tooth pinion)
Headspeed: 2180 rpm

Despite the TRex weighing 1.5 pounds more, it by far outperformed the Logo. I attribute that to the awesome X-Era motor. What really amazes me is that the 6S 5000 mah pack and the 8S 4200 mah pack weigh almost the same. Yet the performance difference is vast. I can see why Bobby Smith is flying Logo 500s on 8S 4200 and X-Era motors.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-21-2009 10:41 PM  8 years agoPost 2
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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Hello

Yep yep and yep

The I've used quite a few brushless motors in the 700 class and man the Xera just takes the cake. The designer knows his stuff and it shows in his product. There are so many thing that a superior about the Xera motors vs the others. Heck just look at the magnets...they are actually supported by the can...why is this not the case on certain 400 dollar motors???

If you want the best for a sub $200 price look for an Xera Motor.

Carlo

BTW: B. is flying the Xera on a Trex 700 and a Knight 600 E. Both of these helis rock the house everytime they are in the air. He does not fly the Logo helicopters.

Xera Motors
ProBar
Minicopter
Thunder Power

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03-22-2009 12:55 AM  8 years agoPost 3
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years,​before mississippi​for 31y

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YEP!!! the 4025 size is the sheets with 550 to 600mm helis.
4030-2.5Y for the 700s and the big ole 4035 size for the lifters. and might be good for 3D. havent tried that size yet in 12s form

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03-22-2009 06:19 AM  8 years agoPost 4
OICU812

rrMaster

Edson, Alberta,​Canada

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You are comparing 8S to 6S however, would be far more accurate account of power with equal cell count. Nothing against Xera or your comments but any motor of equivalent or close specs should be fairly compared by cell count and in same heli.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...

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03-22-2009 10:19 AM  8 years agoPost 5
raptor50luvver

rrKey Veteran

Dorset UK

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I agree i would like comparison with a 6s Xera in a Logo 500 against the Scorpion 4020 1100 in same model with same equip just motor swap.

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03-22-2009 11:15 AM  8 years agoPost 6
fergus

rrKey Veteran

Ireland

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I agree as well. It's nice to hear the X Era is working well but it can't be compared to the smaller scorpion. Especially as you are running 6s V 8s. A smaller disc on the 500 at the same RPM as a 600 won't perform the same.

Regards

Fergus

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03-22-2009 01:52 PM  8 years agoPost 7
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi All,

Sorry for the confusion, but it's not a competition (at least for me). (I'm building another Logo, not another TRex.) I was just reporting my findings.

I honestly think something is wrong with my 4020 setup. I'm going to go through everything starting with the connectors and the headspeed and try to get it working correctly.

I'll keep you posted on my progress. From what others have described, my 4020 is not performing as I would expect.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-22-2009 03:19 PM  8 years agoPost 8
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi All,

Here's some more data that might help tell the story:

TRex 600E with X-Era:
- 4:30 min. flying
- 2850 mah put back in (85% of available)
- 2522 mah put back in (75% of available)
- 9.95 mah per second average draw

Logo 500 with Scorpion
- 4:30 min. flying
- 2884 mah put back in (72% of available)
- 2489 mah put back in (62% of available)
- 9.95 mah per second average draw

Hmm. I was hoping to show that I wasn't using as much power from the Logo, but the usage figures aren't that much lower and the draws are identical. But the X-Era is supposed to be super efficient.

I still think it's my connectors on the Logo.

I'll keep you posted.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-22-2009 03:45 PM  8 years agoPost 9
misskimo

rrElite Veteran

Alaska 17 years,​before mississippi​for 31y

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well if you really want to wake the Xera up on the trex , slap the 10S stick on there if the gear can take it. theres guys useing the kontronics 4508 on 10S which has about the same KV as this one

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03-22-2009 05:52 PM  8 years agoPost 10
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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I am honestly not a huge fan of Scorpion motors though, both my ships are powered by them. Don't get me wrong, Scorpion motors are a great value. I just prefer a cooler running, more efficient motor. I'd fly a Tango if they were'nt cost prohibitive - even at the expense of power. I am very interested in the X-Era motors as it appears not to require any sacrifice of power, efficiency, or value.

LJS, in the future you may want to consider your verbiage a little more carefully. In the interest of accuracy, when comparing "motors" it would be more relevant to say "The X-Era out performed the Scorpion" rather than "The Trex outperformed the Logo", especially in the Mikado forum. From a purely academic or professional perspective, this kind of faux pas weakens your rhetorical argument. More specifically, it undermines your appeal to logic, ie "logos". (apples to apples)

Peace out!!!

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03-22-2009 06:44 PM  8 years agoPost 11
HeliMan Dave

rrVeteran

Suburban Chicago

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LJS,

As I mentioned, would you mind doing a test of the Xera on 6s in the Logo 500? That is what I'm flying and would be the truest test to compare to the Scorpion 4020-1100.

On a side note, Eco8gator, I was basing my choice of the Xera 4025-2Y on your recommendation (using a 19T M0.7 pinion) however Shawn said on 6s that that combination will limit my headspeed quite a bit (and I can't get a larger pinion than 19T) Maybe someone can confirm but I it seems that the "sweet spot" for headspeed on the logo is about 2150-2200?

This is why I'm taking another look at the Scorpion.

Dave

ps, I received my Logo 500 3D yesterday

Logo 700 / 600 / 500 V-Bar NEO / Blade 180CFX / mCPX BL / Nano / V-Control

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03-22-2009 06:45 PM  8 years agoPost 12
fergus

rrKey Veteran

Ireland

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LJS,

Your figures show the same current being drawn on both machines but you say you are getting different performance. There are a couple of things you need to consider. The 6s setup on the logo is providing less watts than the trex due to the lower voltage. You are also running the scorpion at quite a low throttle setting which is holding back the motor and likely effecting efficiency.

I would suggest you bump up the throttle on the logo to 85%. If the resulting headspeed is too much then regear to get your rpm back where you want it. This should see it run cooler. I personally think that higher headspeed wouldn't hurt on the 500. I used to run mine at 2300rpm.

Regards

Fergus

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03-22-2009 07:18 PM  8 years agoPost 13
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi Dave

I'm reluctant to do that because I take such great pains getting the pinions set up just right. Let me think about it a bit.

It appears that the most headspeed I would be able to get from her would be around 2100 at 85% governed. I'm being told that 2100 is too low for a Logo 500, so I'm not sure the test would be worth it.

I've got some things to try before I give up on this 4020.

Keep 'em flying.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-22-2009 07:25 PM  8 years agoPost 14
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi TB,

LOL. I forgot all about the Ford vs Chevy thing when I made my post.

But it really was the entire system that outperformed the other. It's the motor, the battery, the ESC, the heli, the blades -- well everything. But I think that the TRex has the disadvantage in that it is 1.5 pounds heavier. The Logo should be able to hold its own on a battery that weighs nearly the same. Hell, it should be kicking the TRex's butt.

Give me some time to figure out what's wrong with my 4020 setup. Performance was so poor, that I'm quite certain that something is wrong. I'm going after the connectors first, headspeed second. And I'll talk to Lucien to see if he's ever run into this before if necessary.

I'm not saying all Logo 500 with 4020s are like this, because I'm certain they're not. I'm just reporting on mine.

I'll keep you posted.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-22-2009 07:33 PM  8 years agoPost 15
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi Fergus,

Yes, I'm planning on upping the headspeed to 2350 rpm. A friend on another forum tells me this is where he found the sweet spot for maximum "pop." And that's what I'm looking for. Well, that and exceptional vertical performance like I'm getting from the X-Era.

And yes, I realize we're not comparing apples to apples here. But the thing that isn't making sense is why the heavier system is outperforming the lighter system on the same weight battery. Something has to be wrong.

The only thing I know for certain at this point is that the X-Era motor can really put a smile on my face...

Thanks for the tips.
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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03-22-2009 08:01 PM  8 years agoPost 16
HeliMan Dave

rrVeteran

Suburban Chicago

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Thanks LJS.

If the max HS you're going to get is 2100 then I guess I should pass on the Xera motor and get the Scorpion.

That is unless they release a 1100-1200kv Xera motor in the next 3 weeks

I will be curious of your results though if you do put the Xera in the 6s Logo.

Dave

Logo 700 / 600 / 500 V-Bar NEO / Blade 180CFX / mCPX BL / Nano / V-Control

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03-22-2009 08:19 PM  8 years agoPost 17
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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You are comparing a motor size Medium with a motor size X-Large, (even though number looks alike a Xera 4025 isnt even same as Scorpion 4025, even less 4020, for reference Xera 4030 is more the the same as Scorpion 4035)

So with that confusion dealt with ;

If you have a bigger motor, and IF the battery can support it you get power, its as simple as that, heli & weight really doesnt matter (well it does, but if you look at pure power, these things are the keys), then bone it down to discloading (cm2 vs watts/gram) and you have the result

Im about to test a insane thing, a Scorpion 5035 in my T-rex 700, looks like a car generator, really It can take 7500watts.

Thing is, if my flying was limited by the motor before, I will end up with better performance but with less flighttime, on the other hand, if my previous was limited by battery size, I might even end up with longer flighttimes, with improved performance (probably the first)

Electric motors arent really mystic, some thinks there is sweetspots etc, but there isnt, the curve is fixed before you start. _REALLY_

You can download any free motor calc (scorpion has one on their site), input data and it will give you the curve.

Where the "trick" is how they build it, how good cooling, how long it last and how efficent it is in reality (not just PDF fliers)
Just one single % better efficiency = up to 20% better top end power, again if your batteries are up to it.

Thing is, for a given application, its perhaps better to use a "less efficent motor", I use the Scorpion -500 on my .90's, even though 560 is much more efficent and powerful, -500 is "enough" and I gain a minute flighttime, since the motor dont pull those peaks.

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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03-22-2009 08:53 PM  8 years agoPost 18
Terrabit

rrElite Veteran

Seattle, WA - USA

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Damn Mr Mel! You are good! I wish you'd post this as a sticky over on HF. This is good stuff. Based on this information, I would have chosen different motors. Too bad I didn't have access to it ... oh about two years ago. Could have saved me some time and money.

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03-22-2009 09:02 PM  8 years agoPost 19
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Thanks,

Ive spent last year testing different motors, in RL situations, sometimes too much testing, not enough flying.
I currently swap between 3-4 motors in each of my ships, and thats 7 helis, talk about ALOT of motors

Lol, and thats just of curiosity, so, yep, Im sick
Combine that with beta-testing ESC's, lab-testing batteries, fieldtesting batteries, new software for the Vbar + helping people with setups..
and people ask what I do all days, this is 8 hours/day, at least .

Gone fishing..or hunting..or something
My site: http://heli.dacsa.net - VBar videos and more

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03-23-2009 03:40 AM  8 years agoPost 20
LJS

rrKey Veteran

Minnesota, USA

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Hi All,

I think I've got it figured out thanks to MrMel's insight. Here's what I'm dealing with. (Figures courtesy Esprit Models.)

- Logo 500, 6.5 pounds, 4020 motor rated 1640 W = 252 W/pound
- TRex 600, 8 pounds, 4025 motor rated 2600 W = 325 W/pound

That's a 28% better power to weight ratio for the TRex.

It appears that I can correct this by going to the Scorpion 4025-1100:

- Logo 500, 6.5 pounds 4025 motor rated at 2200 W = 338 W/pound

That puts me into the same power to weight ratio that I'm so delighted with on the TRex 600.

What do you think?
LJS

Logo 600 VBar, 10S
TRex 600E VBar, 8S
Logo 500 VBar, 6S
TRex 600ESP, 6S

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Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
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Mikado
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