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HelicopterMain Discussion › Swash Leveler
03-23-2009 02:35 AM  8 years agoPost 21
smallplanes

rrElite Veteran

S.C. ,SSA

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I eyeballed my 700 and i flew it yesturday and i did not have to put one click of trim in it,it was perfect the first flight. The biggest thing is to use a good threadlocker i learned this today the hard way.


Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
Bat 27cc
Trex 700<br

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03-23-2009 02:54 AM  8 years agoPost 22
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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I eyeballed my 700 and i flew it yesturday and i did not have to put one click of trim in it,it was perfect the first flight.
That is not an indication of a good setup IMO. A hover tells you nothing except that perhaps the Swash is level at the hover point - perhaps. In fact, due to Translating Tendency, I can almost guarantee you that if you are using NO trim in a hover that your swash is not level. If it was your Heli would drift due to Translating Tendency. The same is true if your CG is not perfect etc., you almost always need Trim. The point is you want CLEAN Trim (i.e. if you put in Elevator Trim, you want Elevator and ONLY Elevator Trim) and if you don't start with a level Swash you can never achieve that.

What happens with interaction is that when you give an input another uncommanded input is also entered meaning when you try to correct throughout a maneuver your inputs will not be 'clean' but will induce other unwanted inputs as well.

So many people do not fully understand interaction and its cause/effects it is scary.

For more detailed info, I would read this thread:
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...ght=interaction


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-23-2009 05:47 PM  8 years agoPost 23
Skarn

rrVeteran

Pasadena, MD

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I too don't use any trim on any of my heli's.

I also agree that a swash leveler is not needed at all! I've never used one until this past weekend on my 450....well using the leveler, it was almost dead on! I could slip a piece of paper under one so I did change that, but in flight I noticed no difference whatsoever.

I believe getting the "perfect" swash is nice to strive for, but simply not necessary. You will be constantly correcting every cyclic input to maintain a hover anyway...

So for a lot of us, it has nothing to do with the cost of a leveler, just that we feel it's not necessary. And I had to prove that to myself so as I said, I did get a leveler and tried it this past weekend...

Skarn

It's better to burn out than to fade away...

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03-23-2009 09:28 PM  8 years agoPost 24
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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I could slip a piece of paper under one so I did change that, but in flight I noticed no difference whatsoever.
And it was the same at mid, high and low stick?


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-23-2009 10:18 PM  8 years agoPost 25
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Yup! With most modern eCCPM helis, the control system geometry is designed to minimize interaction between high, mid and low stick collective (reason for 140° swash type and 90° arm setup). Add to this the ability of most modern computer radios to accurately adjust servo throws based on whatever swash type is selected. Unless you set up your linkages incorrectly or have a malfunctioning radio, you just don't get significant interactions anymore!

But hey, I've seen some unbelievably poor builds before - just not one of mine.

We in this hobby tend to be gadget freaks anyway. If someone makes a device to do anything on our machines, someone will buy it.

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03-23-2009 10:20 PM  8 years agoPost 26
Sonic88

rrVeteran

Murfreesboro, TN

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mmmmm gadgets.

Procrastinators of the world unite ... tomorrow.
AMA #: 912822

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03-23-2009 11:57 PM  8 years agoPost 27
Dilbeck

rrElite Veteran

Springdale Arkansas

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I find this thread somewhat entertaining,(Eyeballing the swash), (bubble levels and the like), (doesn't make any difference). Then dont bother to ballance your wheels on your car after you put on your new tires either. Anything spinning in a circle at any speed including a ceiling fan can benefit from balancing. If everything was perfectly ballanced from the motor/shaft/fan/gears/belts/blades/tail rotor/drive shaft/fly bar, you will notice a significance difference in vibrations and drifting/wear and tear on all mechanics and the like. One of the above will do little, but all of the above will do wonders. Vibrations, vibrations, vibrations. Its all about continuous improvement of what we have to work with.

Clint

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03-24-2009 12:23 AM  8 years agoPost 28
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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For those that don't level their Swash, fine, just accept that you are using a less than perfect setup. If you are happy with that, fine. I personally am not.


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-24-2009 01:23 AM  8 years agoPost 29
fiveoboy01

rrVeteran

Waunakee, WI - USA

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I always use a leveler... Trublood ones work great and are priced reasonably.... Other methods work, and you CAN eyeball but I don't trust my eyes. The leveler is a cheap investment and you only have to buy it once.

Mikado Logo 400, hopefully ready by spring.

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03-24-2009 01:23 PM  8 years agoPost 30
Skarn

rrVeteran

Pasadena, MD

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Dilbeck: Who said anything about balancing? LOL, I agree you should balance.

Jagnz: Who said they didn't level their swash?? LOL again! I believe every one here said they leveled their swash. Some did it using a tool others used their eyes. Just because YOU can't accept that we DON'T have a "less than perfect setup" as you state does not make it so! You can fiddle with getting everything as perfect as possible until you go crazy, but with the amount of slop in the head anyway, a micrometer "off" isn't going to be noticable in the air!

To each his own of course, it just amazes me that some are so willing to criticize others techniques that have been working beautifully and that I'd BET you couldn't notice any difference as "less than perfect".

Skarn

It's better to burn out than to fade away...

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03-24-2009 02:20 PM  8 years agoPost 31
rexxigpilot

rrProfessor

Florida

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Well said Skarn!

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03-24-2009 03:52 PM  8 years agoPost 32
grim.the.grim

rrVeteran

Houston, Texas

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I purchased these from Ron's Heli Proz! This is the easiest tool I have ever used. They are $15. You have to buy one for each type of heli, BUT you don't have to remove the head. It is made specific to your heli, gives you a level swash at neutral for that heli. I love them!

this link is to Ron's page that has this and other tools...the swash levelers are about mid way down...

http://www.ronlund.com/Merchant2/me...ode=Setup_Tools

*** Real Pilots BEAT the air into submission! ***

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03-24-2009 04:18 PM  8 years agoPost 33
alchemist

rrVeteran

Auckland,New Zealand

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For those that don't level their Swash, fine, just accept that you are using a less than perfect setup. If you are happy with that, fine. I personally am not.
I fly 3D and couldn't agree more that a perfectly level swash (using leveling tool) through-out the entire swash range is a must. Heli's are difficult enough to control without unwanted interactions. Despite what many people say the old eyeball trick is only so accurate IMHO.

That said if you are into hovering and basic circuits you may get away with a good eyeball...that's all I did when I first started and my heli's flew. However these days I wouldn't dream of setting up a heli by eyeball, it's asking for a world of pain.

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03-24-2009 08:54 PM  8 years agoPost 34
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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I purchased these from Ron's Heli Proz! This is the easiest tool I have ever used. They are $15. You have to buy one for each type of heli, BUT you don't have to remove the head. It is made specific to your heli, gives you a level swash at neutral for that heli. I love them!
Those tools are ok but not as good as a 3 point over the Swash type tool. Why? Well because they will work at mid and high stick but because they go below the Swash they do not work at low stick because they block the Swash from moving down. Plus it is hard to tell when they are hard up against the main shaft vs. a tool that fits snugly over the shaft IMO.

You guys can say what you like but if you do not use a tool then your Swash is not level - period. It is a physical impossibility to get it perfect with your eye. And besides, how would you know if you have not confirmed it with a tool? I got no reply from the guy that said he used his eye and confirmed it. He did not say whether he checked it in all stick positions...


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-24-2009 10:51 PM  8 years agoPost 35
Skarn

rrVeteran

Pasadena, MD

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And besides, how would you know if you have not confirmed it with a tool?
If you have to use a tool to show that your swash is not "exact" then what's the freaking point??? If you can't tell something is off when flying it, what are you gaining?

There are plenty of people that do 3d that use the eyeball method.

Like I said, I do have a tool now for both my 450 and 500 and the 500 was dead on and the 450 was almost dead on (I could get a paper to fit between one spot). Now the 450 is dead on as well from using the tool but I could not discern one tiny difference at all in flight.

Ok, I'm done...we can agree to disagree

Skarn

It's better to burn out than to fade away...

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03-24-2009 11:46 PM  8 years agoPost 36
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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If you have to use a tool to show that your swash is not "exact" then what's the freaking point??? If you can't tell something is off when flying it, what are you gaining?
Good god man, what is the point???? The point is a LEVEL SWASH! You might not be able to tell WHY your rolls are not axial or your flips are just a bit 'off' but that does not mean that they aren't. HOW DO YOU KNOW if your Swash is level without a tool? The point is that you don't, plain and simple.

Go do some more reading about interaction and then get back to me. It is clear you do not really understand it. If you 'backyarders' are happy with a quick and dirty eye ball check of your Swash then fine but at least admit there is no way you can tell with 100% certainty the Swash is level that way. And it might be level at center stick but ANY interaction at more extreme throws really makes a difference in flight due to the amplification of the mixing ratio at the blades.

There are some that strive for perfection in their setup and those that don't. You are one that doesn't.
Like I said, I do have a tool now for both my 450 and 500 and the 500 was dead on and the 450 was almost dead on (I could get a paper to fit between one spot). Now the 450 is dead on as well from using the tool but I could not discern one tiny difference at all in flight.
Was that at mid stick only or throughout the entire range of travel? You never answered this question! Or did you only check it at mid stick?


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-25-2009 01:35 AM  8 years agoPost 37
grim.the.grim

rrVeteran

Houston, Texas

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I do have a question on the interaction throughout the travel of the swash. With the tool, I get perfect setup at midstick. How do you adjust the swash as it travels up and down without adversely affecting what you already set up at midstick???

Sorry for taking us off subject...

*** Real Pilots BEAT the air into submission! ***

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03-25-2009 01:38 AM  8 years agoPost 38
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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I do have a question on the interaction throughout the travel of the swash. With the tool, I get perfect setup at midstick. How do you adjust the swash as it travels up and down without adversely affecting what you already set up at midstick???
At absolute high and low stick you use endpoints. In between you use mixes. I personally find that if I set mid, high and low that I have little if ANY Interaction in between.

If you ever fly a properly setup eCCPM ship you will see what all the fuss is about. They just become a joy to fly when setup right. Sheesh, I can't believe I am actually fighting with people (on RR no less) to get them to setup their heli the RIGHT way! I guess there are a lot of half ass pilots/builders out there...


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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03-25-2009 01:45 AM  8 years agoPost 39
grim.the.grim

rrVeteran

Houston, Texas

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At absolute high and low stick you use endpoints. In between you use mixes. I personally find that if I set mid, high and low that I have little if ANY Interaction in between.
That is language I don't understand...still new to the whole heli thing! Taking the lazy mans way out...is there a site that describes how to accomplish and adjust end points and mixes???

Thank you again!

*** Real Pilots BEAT the air into submission! ***

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03-25-2009 01:54 AM  8 years agoPost 40
JAGNZ

rrProfessor

Auckland, New​Zealand

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Happy to help mate, you seem keen to learn.

Anyway, check out this thread:
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...ght=interaction
it will tell you all you need to know plus I link to downloadable videos which will show you how to do it quickly and easily.

Using a leveler I can do it in 5 minutes and it will be dead nuts on.


Jason Greenwood

www.3dheli.co.nz

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