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HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › AMain Hobbies does not carry the Pantera anymore
03-18-2009 06:39 PM  8 years agoPost 21
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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Loan? Loan???? Argh!!!!!!

Do me a favor, see if there's interest in owning their own back issues, I'll make a heck of a deal for the VHS back issues, perhaps $5 each. Do you think there would be interest in this from your club members?


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-19-2009 12:03 AM  8 years agoPost 22
Blademan

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Morehead, KY

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So the Pantera is a CLONE

CHP

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03-19-2009 02:43 AM  8 years agoPost 23
Chucky777

rrApprentice

Webster, Texas

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NO CLONE

That not what he said. He said he used ideas yes from many other Helis out there and improved on them. If you want to say it is a CLONE then so are the Trex's, Raptors, and JR's out there. He clearly showed you and example of a clone with a Frenzy and the Vibe 50. almost exact copy. The Pantera is built on some of the major principles in the Heli world yes. But is not a direct copy of any of them. Like John said he's has been out before some of the tecknowledge out there. If you want to say any are CLONES many have followed his Heli. The Pantera has been around for 2 and 1/2 years that I know of. I got mine back in Christmas of 2007 and did not get around to building it until 2008. I been flying it now for 6 month and love it. This a very stable Heli. and flys on rails. Don't be knocking it down until you tried it and saw for yourself. As you can see on this topic there are many happy pilots out there flying this heli and loving it. (OPPS I stole Mc Donalds Quote). Sue me

Charlie

Is it the weekend yet?

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03-19-2009 03:29 AM  8 years agoPost 24
Blademan

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Morehead, KY

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The Frenzy is not a clone of the vibe. None of the parts will work on either. They may look alike, but they are not. Say If i were to clone you wouldn't parts of you body work with the clone ????? JS also used ideas form other helis and Mr. Beech said they were stolen. So i think the same for the Pantera. If he used ideas from other helis, those ideas were stolen also......

CHP

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03-19-2009 06:55 AM  8 years agoPost 25
Chucky777

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Webster, Texas

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There you go again

Don't knock a good thing down untill you try it. Look at all the Helis out there. They all are inherantly the same. and yes some part can fit other helis. or can be adapted. About the Heli i haven't seen cloned or copyed in some way is the Kyosho Calibers. and I had 3 of them. They were good helis also. If you would just look at the details you will see what he saying.
So i think the same for the Pantera. If he used ideas from other helis, those ideas were stolen also......
Like I said before the Pantera was around before some of the latest heli out there now and they stole from him. and why not It a good design. John Beech is just a honest man trying to make a living doing what he loves. I wish I could make money in the Heli buisness. But I could not compete with all the competion from over seas.

He got it marked so low now, buy 1 and see for yourself. If you don't like it sell it. Im sure there is someone who will gladly take it off your hands.

http://www.genesishobby.com/Product...01/Default.aspx

Charlie

Is it the weekend yet?

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03-19-2009 07:54 AM  8 years agoPost 26
tacoturbo

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Kauai, Hawaii

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Hey JB, what is modelsport?

TT

I don't do 3D....no wait. Oh thats right, I can't do 3D!

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03-19-2009 08:58 AM  8 years agoPost 27
Chucky777

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Webster, Texas

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Hey Tacoturbo

Hey JB, what is modelsport?
I'm not JB, but your question intrig me and I looked it up. I found 2 hits on modelsport. 1 was and RC cars and the other is the video magazine. The Video mag is what JB has.

Hope this helps.

Charlie

Is it the weekend yet?

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03-19-2009 11:22 AM  8 years agoPost 28
Blademan

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Morehead, KY

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JB must put something in those kits to brainwash you guys LOL

CHP

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03-19-2009 12:15 PM  8 years agoPost 29
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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No, no Blademan, you don't undertsand. It's the Kool-Aid packageed with the box, which you're supposed to mix with some 30% and drink from the fuel tank with your Hyper . . . that's what does it! What happens is this magic elixir opens your eyes and suddenly folks realize what they've been missing. It's an eye opening experience, but first things first, you have to drink the Kool-Aid


John Beech
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IRCHA #745

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03-19-2009 01:26 PM  8 years agoPost 30
skew

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KY

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I have tried "kool-aid" before it rotted out my teeth and left a bad after taste after a few glasses. After a consultation with our local club herbalist. I only drink bottled water packaged from a large city's municipal tap water supply disguised as spring water. So far its been a very refreshing beverage.

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03-19-2009 01:36 PM  8 years agoPost 31
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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Funny you should say that as I heard the story many bottled water beverages were simply municipal water as well. Amazing what can be passed onto unsuspecting consumers, isn't it?

Al joking aside, I have taken extraordinary steps to offer up what I feel is the best 50-class model money can buy, and have it on a super sale at rpesent so anybody can risk comparatively little to look it over and give it a chance to show what many folks here already know.

Join us, the water's fine!


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-19-2009 02:52 PM  8 years agoPost 32
gondwnhard

rrApprentice

redwood city ca.

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Blademan if you ask me the js is a clone or at least as close as you can get that is why i bought it the geometry is the same so i new it would fly good at this point i can't see myself crashing a 600+ kit after aready going through 3 t600ns. with the js i don't really care if i crash it and not afraid to try new things as i can now moe the grass with it. with the deal jb is give with the pantera i think i will give it a try there is not mouch to lose and it just might fly good, pluse don't you get kool-aid with it. far as to what people think about buying a clone i don't give a s it this is all about flying and haveing fun so if they don't like what some one flys they should just keep it to them self.

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03-19-2009 05:47 PM  8 years agoPost 33
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay​Area CA, US (San​Mateo)

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"Actually, I have shamelesly stolen ideas, and hope to in the future again as anything is fair game when it comes to improving my Pantera!"

So you who have been touting not cloneing as stealing the intellectual work of others without paying for it do the exact same thing but on a larger scale and more thoroughly so its ok to steal small ideas from people but not there whole idea......wow hypocritical if you ask me

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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03-19-2009 06:26 PM  8 years agoPost 34
cstoneman

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Colorado

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Good grief, give it a rest. What are you trying to prove anyway?

You guys say it's not a clone, but I bet even though you won't say it here, when you bought it, your mind was saying, "I can get a Vibe 50 for $220".

Fly your JS. Have fun.

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03-19-2009 06:26 PM  8 years agoPost 35
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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The borrowing of ideas is what historically has advanced the art of engineering; wholesale theft is another matter altogether.

Sadly, when one lacks the basic capacity for understanding the ethical difference, then like describing color to a blind man, there's simply no filling the apparent void of ignorance.


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-19-2009 06:46 PM  8 years agoPost 36
VooDooX

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San Francisco Bay​Area CA, US (San​Mateo)

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Lets say JR develops new main bearing blocks that are somehow much better then everything else out and you decide you want them on your pantera so you add them to your helis design... YOU STOLE ALL OF JRS research and hard work and didnt pay the engineers squat so i believe your saying its ok to steal a penny from someone but if you steal a dollar its just wrong..please correct me if im wrong and i expect the response to this to be something liek OMG GOOD GRIEF GIVE IT A REST because you cant answer the question btw there IS no ethical difference..stealing is stealing...period

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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03-19-2009 06:59 PM  8 years agoPost 37
cstoneman

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Colorado

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I think you were asking JB, but here you go.

OMG, GOOD GRIEF, GIVE IT A REST.

Seeing how defensive you are, may well prove the point.

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03-19-2009 07:33 PM  8 years agoPost 38
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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OK, one last try . . . but only because you now seem to be expanding the horizon of the conversation, which I think may be the beginning of enlightenment as you try to conceptualize and integrate how there actually is a difference.

Here's how I would interpret this situation. First, I'd try to figure out what they did and why they did it, e.g try to understand if they were solving a problem we had as well.

Next, I'd try to figure out if their implementation was the best possible. For example, did you know during WWII we brought captured remains of V1 Buzz Bombs home to study them and worked to create our own?

Further to implementation, presuming I thought they indeed have a good idea and indeed it would benefit my own product I'd seek to understand how best to apply the engineering principle as I sought to see how I could improve on it. For example, perhaps they use three set screws, drilled and tapped radially into the body of bearing block, to secure the bearing better.

Anyway, first we'd run a computer simulation to determine if they're even solving a real problem. next, presuming they were, we'd try to figure out a better way to attack it. Perhaps securing it with a socket cap bolt from another orientation might do the job better (better in engineering terms is usually related to cheaper, and with fewer parts, or easier to manufacture). Moreover, I'd also look over the tape and see if it would be better to make the move at a different point in the CNC process, again so it would be easier, cheaper, etc. What's more, perhaps I discover during this analysis we can use two pan head bolts instead of three set screws to achieve the same results. Drilling and tapping for two is cheaper than doing it for three and this is a 50% reducting in tooling costs for that operation, which is significant. In fact, perhaps I discover we can get away with using just one! That said, perhaps we conclude it's smarter to simply glue the bearing in with bearing and stud adhesive, which still 'copies' their intent but is achieved via a completely different engineering process.

The end result is an advance of the engineering of a part inspired by the thought process of another engineer, which is precisely how th art of engineering is advanced! Moreover, this is a trivial example and we can rather easily see where you're going with this and all I can do is refer you again to the photograph of the two machines side-by-side and leave a judgement of what has hapened to JR to a reasonable man.

I am sorry if you disagree with the basic premise, but using a simpistic example to try and trip me up simply isn't going to work because we keep stumbling over those pesky facts. To wit, it's my view the model is a complete ripoff of JR's intellectual effort!

Consider this, even when I am certain I am right, when enough folks disagree with me, because I am a reasonable fellow, I'll step back and re-examine my position. While there may be people who are rather tired of the whole thing, I rather suspect the viewpoint of it being a ripoff is a concensus. Furthermore, since model helicopter guys are a cut above the average in mechanical inclination, and better able to deal with complex thought processes as well, I believe you're wasting your time baiting me simply because it's too obvious what's going on.

In closing, if I may mix my metaphors. there's a reason Shakespear said calling a rose by any other name wouldn't change what it is, which is the same as trying to put lipstick on the pig of an argument that it's not theft . . . simply put, it ain't gonna fly with this crowd.

Enough sophistry, we all know what's going on, so give it a break!


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-19-2009 07:53 PM  8 years agoPost 39
cstoneman

rrApprentice

Colorado

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Whether or not the parts are exact duplicates, it is obvious that the message sent by JS models is "A Rave 50 for cheap".

And cheap is true. I doubt the materials are up to JR standards, but I wouldn't know, and really don't care. Some people will buy the JS, and other people will buy the JR.

Fly what you want, but don't try to convince me that the JS is not a Vibe 50 rip off. It is obvious.

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03-19-2009 09:02 PM  8 years agoPost 40
tacoturbo

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Kauai, Hawaii

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OMG, Good Grief give it a rest! There, now I feel better too. VooDoo, fly what you want. You're getting your Frenzy into a TZzzy.

TT

I don't do 3D....no wait. Oh thats right, I can't do 3D!

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