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03-17-2009 04:42 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Viberheld

rrApprentice

near Frankfurt,​Germany

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Yes, patent costs are too high for manufacturers like JR.

That's the Problem...

JR Vibe NEX E8 FBL, XG8, 11X Zero

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03-17-2009 04:56 PM  8 years agoPost 42
JustPlaneChris

rrApprentice

Austin,TX - USA

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Yes, patent costs are too high for manufacturers like JR.

That's the Problem...
According to the wiki, the term patent usually refers to a right granted to anyone who invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof.

Since there isn't anything truly "new" in any manufacturer's RC helicopter designs, nobody patents. It's not a matter of money. It's a matter of it not being something you can patent.

-Chris-
-Austin, TX-

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03-17-2009 05:03 PM  8 years agoPost 43
USNAviationjay

rrElite Veteran

Houston Tx USA

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I don't buy that.. or else everyone would use the same crap and rip off each other which you dont see at all in the USA.

You cannot build a car that looks like Mustang uses all parts that look exactly like a Ford Mustangs pieces and then market it as a "Jason Jazz" or some crap you cannot just carbon copy a product and then just rename it.

there are laws that prevent that.. maybe its not a patent but you cannot use other companies ideas/designs and then market them as your own as we see so much in the RC Heli community.

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03-17-2009 05:21 PM  8 years agoPost 44
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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It is about money and time

When these small manufacturers try and buy patents, the often find that by the time they spend the high $$$ for said patent and the process is done, someone may have already copied their idea and sold it and then it is time to reload and start the process all over again with the "new" version.
Heli manufacturers are small compared the Ford and other major car maunfacturers so they don't have the capitol (for lawyers and such) and time (too busy making helis and trying to keep up with demand ) to deal with the whole clone issue.
We as consumers have to decide if we want to keep the clone guys in business or if we want to drive out the original guys.
Competition is not always bad though as we have seen many times here with certain heli manufaturers like Mikado for instance. They had the market cornered in small E-helis for years with the Logo 10 and were getting a PREMIUM for the kits/parts. Now the Century Swift comes along and takes away market share which forces Mikado to drop the price of the kits/spares to accomodate the on the fence consumers.
So I say buy what you like and fly the crap out of it ..........Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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03-17-2009 05:27 PM  8 years agoPost 45
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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Folks, the answer is to follow the money. How do you follow the money into Communist China? You really can't. And if you were to win a judgement, how would you enforce it? Again, you can't.

For our part, the answer is simple, we're going to be forced down into the mud with prices, e.g. make it uneconomical for them. We're going to do it in anticpation of how we could be next (though it's far more expensive to make a plastic model than the comparatively simple process of manufacturing a composite model).

Frankly, I don't know another answer. Walk into a Wal-Mart, take 15 minutes and try to find a product 'not' made in China. Have any luck? Sadly, with consumers who seemingly are only smart enough to compare price because they don't have the education, experience, or morals to judge quality and value - or care - what's left?

For our part, we have worked hard to create a good product and offer it for a fair price. It doesn't seem to matter. Heavy sigh.


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-17-2009 05:54 PM  8 years agoPost 46
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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But would you, in your considered judgement compare the quality and features of the Swift, e.g. as the equal of the Logo 10? I certainly wouldn't (even if I had my beer goggles on).

In my view, you just can't seem to get something for nothing; not in model helicopters, not in automobiles, or even in refridgerators! If you want my best (I speak as any company, not just us, of course), be it service, quality, or design you're going to have to pay for it.

Don't reward me adequately, or steal from me, then I have reduce quality or service to compete . . . or find something else to do. In short, you get what you pay for, and as always, you pay for what you get. Moreover, if a customer is satisfied with a reduced level of quality and service, then you're absolutely correct and there's really nothing much else to say.


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-17-2009 06:17 PM  8 years agoPost 47
JustPlaneChris

rrApprentice

Austin,TX - USA

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I find this entire discussion amusing (and rather pointless) because EVERY helicopter (regardless of brand) is essentially just a collection of borrowed ideas from other designs.

I don't have a dog in this fight because I don't fly a JR or a TS heli. But to my reckoning, this so-called "Vibe clone" is not a clone. Why? Because you can't go buy JR Vibe replacement parts and stick them in it, nor does it work the other way around. Is it similar? Sure! Especially the canopy. Did the manufacturers "borrow" features from other designs? No doubt. But along that same vein, you can swap parts among almost any of the mini helicopters, and lots of larger ones too. NOTHING IS TRULY NEW in helicopter design. Just look at the latest "new" Align helis for proof of that.

All that said, everyone should buy what makes them happy. If you feel morally superior buying a "name brand" helicopter, that's great. But morals are like religion: Don't try to force your morals on everyone else, and don't assume that just because someone chooses to buy one of those helicopters (or any other made in China product for that matter) that they lack "education, experience, or morals". That's rude, elitist, and more than a little arrogant. There's no need for that kind of attitude in this hobby.

-Chris-
-Austin, TX-

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03-17-2009 06:57 PM  8 years agoPost 48
VooDooX

rrElite Veteran

San Francisco Bay​Area CA, US (San​Mateo)

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Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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03-17-2009 08:13 PM  8 years agoPost 49
ProModeler

rrElite Veteran

Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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That's rude, elitist, and more than a little arrogant

Actually Chris, I don't disagree with you as there is always a germ of truth in every argument, and I am as human and prone to hubris, error, or misjudgement as the next. However, let me ask you this, what's your line of work?

If you're working white collar, e.g. an attorney, CPA, engineer, architect, computer engineer, etc. and lose a contract to a bid won based on labor outsourced to China, was it fair? What if you're a janitor, carpenter, printer, mechanic, repairman, assemblyman, doctor, painter, deliveryman, business owner, e.g. a regular Joe working hard with his hands and playing by the rules - whether it union or not - and you're undercut by cheaters who bid using illegal labor, was this fair?

I led the argument earlier with education or experience because when men stay silent bad things happen. Consequently, I won't be silent and moreover, I'll defend JR (whom in a business-sense I'd sooner take behind the woodshed for a whooping using my Pantera against their Vibe 50) because it's the right thing to do. Semenatics aside, place the Frenzy next to a Vibe 50 and deny the rip off. Thus is just plain wrong - you don't have to be educated, in fact, you don't even have to be experienced - you just need a set of eyes to know what's right.

As for morals, I'm of the opinion we learned some of our most valueable lessons on morals as children on the playground. Frankly, there's no more difference in a bully-company stealing intellectually, hindering tort due to government protection, possessed of enormous wage advantages, and able (in essence) to steal your lunch money . . . than when we were kids.

They are stealing with impunity! We all know it and we all know what's right and wrong here . . . theft is one of the universal morals if you grew to adulthood. You may not do what's right, but you'll know it's wrong. Frankly, it's not even a very hard judgement as these things go. Moreover, it's "precisely" through discourse and argument (as on this forum), e.g. how we interact to advance ourselves, that we advance and achieve more information, education and yes, maybe a little help with our morals. We can't hide from it.

As for experience, I've heard it said experience is the hardest teacher because it puts you to the test before giving you the lesson. People are taking the test right now. As for JR, make no mistake, this thing is gonna hurt them.

Anyway, if a company is so morally bankrupt they'll steal this way, they'll perhaps gain customers for a while - until the word gets out. Before it's over, I suspect even the guy who bought one only to subsequently learn how dishonest the process was will feel a pinch in his conscience and consequently, try to do what's right (despite being innocent). And I bet I am not alone in thinking this. Moreover, if this brands me as rude, elitist, and more than a little arrogant . . . I can live with it because despite JR being a mortal competitor against my product, I know what's right.

Finally, thank you for bringing your views to this discourse. Sadly, we may have to simply agree to disagree. Moreover, I also recognize "I" personally am not the best guy to wage this battle because I can be abrasive and outspoken, especially when a more prudent man would shut the heck up. However, 'please' don't throw the baby of the argument about fairness out with the bathwater of me being the guy delivering part of it. We all know what's right, so we just need to make sure our friends and foes knows what's really going on so we can unite as modelers. What one's morals dictate from there is their business and I wouldn't presume to judge from there.

I work for a living. I'm proud of what I do. I don't have to cheat or steal to do it. Mine is the smallest and least powerful player in the 50-class helicopter market, but nevertheless, fair competiton is one thing and cheating is another. If the Vibe 50 can squash my Pantera at the flying field of sales, I can live with it because I took the business risk. However, for the Frenzy to rip off the Vibe 50, e.g. cheat aginst my competitor means I'll cry foul at the top of my lungs because it's not fair. In America, it's all about fairness and I'm very, very proud to compete against JR (and try my best to defeat them soundly), but I'll do it fairly - and we all know the difference.

My 2¢


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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03-17-2009 08:29 PM  8 years agoPost 50
AaronJohnson

rrElite Veteran

mason,MI

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It is one thing to see a simaler design amoungst different manufacturer's helis. It is another thing when you see THE SAME DESIGN HELI. I mean, sure, no parts are interchangeable between the 2. However it doesnt take much to slightly change the parts to make them different but c'mone, the Frenzy is 100% a clone of the Vibe 50's design. I dont care if parts dont interchange. Is there some simalarity between the Synergy N9 rotor head design and the Vibe 50 and 90 sg's head? Well YES but they are not a copy of each other. I agree with John Beech on this from a manufacturer's standpoint as well as a consumer. I dont think that it is right that a company can sell a product like the Frenzy that is an obvious cheap copy of the JR vibe 50. It isnt morally right to me. BTW I am not feeling like I am elite or better then someone becuase I own the real thing but I own the real thing because IMHO it is the right thing to do.

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03-17-2009 08:34 PM  8 years agoPost 51
USNAviationjay

rrElite Veteran

Houston Tx USA

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JPC
I used to look up to you back in the RC groups days in fact had an all things that fly sticker still on my toolbox.

but man the more you talk the less that is still true.

#1 this is NOT about JR and Not about JS..
its about theft and these so called companies stealing designs of much bigger more well known companies.

RCTek had their own designs stolen from them at the manufacturing facility and beat to market with an identical bird under the KDS/GUlang name.. look that up on RCgroups and why the RCtek 480 never came to market.

Other clones mainly CopterX/Gulang/KDS steal so blatantly that yes every piece is 100% identical.

and now its spread to the 500 class and is spreading into the larger nitro helis even more.

That crap is NOT right.

Here in Texas.. we shoot thieves.. and those that support them outright..

Morals or not THEFT.. ANYWAY YOU CUT IT IS THEFT. SO yes I do feel superior to any scumbag that would outright buy and support thieves.
There is no "gray area here"

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03-17-2009 09:29 PM  8 years agoPost 52
JustPlaneChris

rrApprentice

Austin,TX - USA

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You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's RIGHT, I'm just saying getting all worked up about it is not likely going to help. People will seek the best deal (sometimes regardless of ethics or morality). It is the nature of people everywhere.

I also tried (perhaps unsuccessfully) to point out that there are varying levels of "cloneliness". The CopterX/Gulang thing is a great example. There's no doubt they are clones, right down to the last detail. But does a lesser degree of cloning (like the TS) make it less evil? That's not for me to decide, but it's an interesting thing to ponder.

I try to keep the hobby on the fun side of things, and now here we are having heated discussions about company ethics... WTH! This is supposed to be FUN. Are we having fun yet?

-Chris-
-Austin, TX-

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03-17-2009 10:11 PM  8 years agoPost 53
VooDooX

rrElite Veteran

San Francisco Bay​Area CA, US (San​Mateo)

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ive been enjoying this thread alot i ran out of popcorn tho doh

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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03-17-2009 10:40 PM  8 years agoPost 54
JustPlaneChris

rrApprentice

Austin,TX - USA

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Well, I can't say I'm really enjoying it since I actually don't enjoy conflict or arguments so I usually don't step into large sticky discussions like this.

Guys, I truly didn't intend to inflame things even more, I just wanted to share my perspective on the whole issue. To be clear, I do believe theft is wrong. And yes, here in Texas thieves do seem to end up on the wrong end of a gun sometimes.

-Chris-
-Austin, TX-

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03-17-2009 11:58 PM  8 years agoPost 55
gondwnhard

rrApprentice

redwood city ca.

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Well JB I am one of thosereguelar joses trying to work hard and getting undorcut by illegal labor is that fair no. But i don't go around crying about it. and i am not in Sugar Land TX where it must be legalto shoot people or i would be down at home depot shooting all the wetbacks for steeling my work. If i did that here in ca. where i don't beleave it is legal i would end up in court what would i tell the judge that i am superior to those scumbags because there outright steeling my work that might work in tx but not here. and for some of us that arn't working much because of those scumbags that want to fly i will do what it takes and if that means to buy a cheap clone then thats what i will do and if i am going to get a clone then why not a clone of a good flying heli and the tz fly's really good. So to some it up i don't give a f ck what you think just get over it i have

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03-18-2009 04:07 PM  8 years agoPost 56
gondwnhard

rrApprentice

redwood city ca.

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usnaviationjay no snappy reply.

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03-18-2009 04:13 PM  8 years agoPost 57
USNAviationjay

rrElite Veteran

Houston Tx USA

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Sure I got plenty of snappy replies..

If "ILLEGAL" Mexicans are stealing your menial labor jobs.. then maybe you should have stayed in school past the 2nd grade and gone to college so you could afford more than a JS heli and have to worry about "ILLEGAL" Mexicans stealing your lawn mowing job.

Hows that?

edited to clarify this was not an attack on upstanding tax paying legal resident Mexicans.. just illegal ones. Just an attack on uneducated racists complaining about loosing their jobs to illegals.

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03-18-2009 05:00 PM  8 years agoPost 58
jadams

rrKey Veteran

East coast USA

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I know that most heli's "borrow" some design but the Frenzy v2 is total BS. They stole all of JR's design and made a cheap Vibe 50. I would not buy one just on principle. A Main Hobby should dump it too.

Well said jbeech. ^^^

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03-18-2009 08:18 PM  8 years agoPost 59
VooDooX

rrElite Veteran

San Francisco Bay​Area CA, US (San​Mateo)

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ok so dont buy one i will and i will save money you wont and the first time you crash your gonna be digging deep while i wont i can buy 3-4 frenzys for the cost of 1 vibe there deffinantly reaming you on the price i bet it costs around 100$ to produce a vibe heli with cost of parts rest is name brand

Velocity 50 "99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space." also 01001000 01001001

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03-18-2009 11:25 PM  8 years agoPost 60
jadams

rrKey Veteran

East coast USA

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Do what you gotta do. I personally think that what JS is doing is wrong. I have no problem paying for quality stuff. You get what you pay for.

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