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HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › Will it GO or will it BLOW
03-18-2009 05:02 AM  8 years agoPost 81
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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FBL?

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03-18-2009 05:04 AM  8 years agoPost 82
Machinehead01

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Lower Michigan

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FBL

FBL=Flybarless. I'm running the skookum setup.

Thomas

"You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone."

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03-18-2009 08:52 PM  8 years agoPost 83
heli_headcase

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Hovering around​Atlanta

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It's perfect for heli's...

That nitro pipe is going to be way too peaky and the power band too narrow.
Heli's are one-speed devices in most cases. Governors are electronic versions of what a correctly configured tuned exhaust system will provide. The sharper the peak, the higher the equivalent system gain and the less the RPM will vary under load.

The trick with heli's and pipes is to run the unloaded head speed slightly above the peak torque (not peak HP) RPM and the speed self-limits nicely. Load the head and the RPM drops into the peak torque section (referred to as the Power Band) and the torque sharply increases resisting any further drop in speed. You know when it's working correctly from the sound - Unloaded the exhaust is somewhat burbly, misfiring and seems rich. Place any load on the engine and the exhaust impulses even right out and sound strong.

Running a slightly too-long header helps promote this RPM limiting feature. Too short and the mixture is impossible to adjust and there's this constant overspeeding problem. Since heli's provide a continuously varying load (unlike a ducted fan with a fixed-pitch impeller), the pipe needs to be longer than the "correct" length for a DF setup.

What fuel (nitro) percent is being used? Most DF engines can only handle 15% tops, 10% or less is typically recommended. At high RPM the conrod big-end is the most loaded and sensitive part of the engine. You have to keep it rich if you want the engine to survive and also, what I learned from running DF and other fast nitro engines, make sure the crank pin-to-conrod bushing clearance is .003-.005". This gap is needed to allow fuel to get into the bearing surfaces. I ran .004" on my 4HP OS 61SX-H. It sounded loose but held up to all sorts of running abuse this way. My BVM .91S DF engine had .005" play and would run at 25K RPM all day long.

Good luck!


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...

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03-18-2009 11:01 PM  8 years agoPost 84
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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As of now I have been running Swamp Water (CoolPower 30% and CoolPower 15% 50/50 heli. mix, I have about 3/4 gallon left then I will be on CoolPower 20% Heli.)

From Tower Hobbies

Fuel with 20% MINIMUM lubricant content and 20%-50% Nitromethane

From the manual

This engine is designed to run on both low and high nitromethane content fuels. ....... As a starting point, we recommend a fuel containing 10% nitromethane, changing to a fuel containing more nito if necessary.

As of now I have two .015 shims under the head (it came with one), in the last 2 vids. I am running a temp of about 205 on the top of the head, when I went lean by putting the motor at 22K it went hotter but that was not usable setting.

I think I found the pipe I will be trying out at http://www.macspro.com/marinetunedpipes.asp number 1404. Part of me want to keep using a unmuffled pipe, but my ears are ringing every time I fire this thing up and my hearing is bad enough now. That one is a "double quiet" and they say they are under 90db in most aplications.

Some good info, THANKS

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03-19-2009 01:25 AM  8 years agoPost 85
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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Bummer down again. I just tried to get her back together and I messed up my modified clutch bell I gave it one heck of a wobble, so down for a few more days.

Come on Brother in Law, fix me up again.

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03-20-2009 04:17 AM  8 years agoPost 86
billm

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Liberty Lake, WA

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Your on the edge. What mods did you do to your clutch?
Should be fine in the stock mode. I know your punching buco power.
run out ok? did the vibrating muff gen set fail?

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

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03-21-2009 04:13 AM  8 years agoPost 87
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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The clutch and the clutch bell is working fine as stock, the problem I have is that the 9 tooth pinion that I am using on the threaded end that goes into the clutch bell it is smaller, but the top is the same size, so I my brother in law milled out the thread hole in the clutch bell and pressed in a sleeve. Next prob. was that the pinion is a 9mm with a thread of 1.25 he thinks, well there is no tap avail. to make those threads, so he just kept drilling out the hole by .005 each time then trying to get the pinion to tap the threads itself.

All was good until I had a bearing starting to clank and squeal, I popped out the inside bell bearing and replaced it, but when I was pressing it back in I ended up breaking the sleeve partly loose, so it is not turning true. I knew I had a problem when I could hear a pop when the bearing was being pressed back in.

As for run-out, I will not call it good unless the run-out was under .001 I think on the current setup I have now I am at .0008 I figure at 22K I better get everything running as true as I can. The version before this one I had it down a little better but I ended up getting so much dirt in the motor I had to do a complete tear down to get it clean. I spent over 2 hours working on the run-out and when I hit the .0008 I called it good.

There is one other pinion avail. that I have found so I may order it to see if it will work any better. It would be great if I could find one with a 10MM bolt pattern so I could just screw it directly into the bell and be done with it.

No word from the man, so I prob. will be down all week end. It gave me a reason to get my other Pantera together. I will be setting up the radio tomorrow morning and firing her up later that afternoon I hope. Back to OS 61SX-WC until I get the call that he has me fixed up again.

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04-09-2009 02:54 PM  8 years agoPost 88
Oneyeflyr

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Enid, Oklahoma - USA

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So how 'bout that drag race bird?

Is she ready for competition? Still looking for that crazy tuned pipe?

Barry

He who lands hard, makes brown skid marks

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04-09-2009 11:01 PM  8 years agoPost 89
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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I found a marine tuned pipe that should get me by.

I still am waiting on the clutch bell. My back up guy said his equip. is too worn out to make anything that tight so I thought of a plan C guy on the way home tonight. He has a full machine shop with a CNC so it might cost a bit more but he should be able to make it if he is not swamped.

So I am still on hold for a little longer. I do have the OS 61 Pantera zipping around tho.

Something that has been in the back of my head since I got this pipe is. It is a used pipe, and since it is a marine pipe that means it was used in the water. What if it decides that something is wrong and it makes my bird go for a drink in a puddle, or worse yet, what if it try to make my bird dig a well so it can get back in the water again. Just one of those thing that makes you go HUUUUMMMM????

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04-10-2009 03:31 AM  8 years agoPost 90
billm

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Liberty Lake, WA

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Oh god,
Your at it again.
This is a monster that your building.
Please tell me when you fire up your chopper so I can go to DEFCON 4 and make sure all the little children are safe in the bunker.

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

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04-10-2009 04:14 AM  8 years agoPost 91
Oneyeflyr

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Enid, Oklahoma - USA

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Something that has been in the back of my head since I got this pipe is. It is a used pipe, and since it is a marine pipe that means it was used in the water. What if it decides that something is wrong and it makes my bird go for a drink in a puddle, or worse yet, what if it try to make my bird dig a well so it can get back in the water again. -John
..and that's why you control the helicopter, not the other way around.

I mean if you think about it, all the materials used to build this bird came from the ground. ... and here I'm always trying to figure out why that Align's always want to return to where they came from and dig a hole back to China.

That makes sense.
Barry

He who lands hard, makes brown skid marks

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04-10-2009 10:39 PM  8 years agoPost 92
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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Well my plan C guy is going to be able to make me a clutch bell, BUT his CNC is down now so it may be a week or two before he can set me up.

I am going to build a new set of frames for the HotRod so I guess that that gives me time to do that, and get everything else a good looking through. I have a good feeling about this next version.

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04-25-2009 01:05 AM  8 years agoPost 93
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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I may be back into it again. I talked to THE MAN tonight on the way home from work and he is planning on making it tommarow if all goes well. I probably will not be running it this weekend, but I am going to shoot for Mon. or Tues.

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04-25-2009 04:09 AM  8 years agoPost 94
billm

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Liberty Lake, WA

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let us know, just joined a cluch bell to the clutch.
I think I got things really hot durring a demo.
Time to pull the BBC and see what happend. I suspect that durring a hot start I smoked the clutch and things started to be one.

My name is Billm. Cough, and I'm a Heli Holic

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04-25-2009 07:34 PM  8 years agoPost 95
Oneyeflyr

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Enid, Oklahoma - USA

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I've almost done that before.

He who lands hard, makes brown skid marks

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04-26-2009 02:14 AM  8 years agoPost 96
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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Bill, on my Hawk I have had the clutch break off one of its arms (just from heat and stress) and kind of jam itself into the stuck on position. I have never had that happen on then on the Pantera but it could be that.

OK on to the new stuff.

Here is a shot of the stock bell and the new bell

I go to pick it up and he says I kind of messed up on the tapper. I told him I did not care if it was squared off as long as it was solid.

Here is something that I never noticed on these pinions, there is a small milled down section just above the threads.

Well on my first clutch bell I had the bell so the threads were all the way to the top of the bell, on this one he went and made it like the other (since I did not tell him not too, but then again I never noticed it) put a small taper then the threads. So as you see in the next pics. I got out the dremel and the file again. A new clutch bell not even a couple of hours old and I am already hacking on it. LOL

Do not tell the wife that I was grinding on this already she will kill me. She was not too happy when I told her what I paid for it. The pinion I am using is almost a 1/4" shorter than the stock Pantera one so I have added one of the Raptor nuts (that come with the 11 tooth pinons) on top of the pinion then put the stock bearing on top of it. It is still a little short on the inside of the bearing but it is over 3/4 there so I think it will be fine. By doing this every thing lines up and mounts in the same position.

As of now I have the new bell all together with the lining, pinion, and bearings all setting up. I have a new piston rod I am going to put in the motor so that is next. I am going to try and shoot for Mon. or Tues. run-up, wait until you see this thing with the correct size pipe, that pipe is huge.

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05-31-2009 03:30 PM  8 years agoPost 97
Mr.HillBilly

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Salesville, OH - USA

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Just a touch up on my little project.

I had the HotRod out yesterday. This new pipe keeps burning holes though the silicone couplers on the header and pipe. I can not find 7/8" couplers so I have been making them out of 2 smaller ones. This works fine until I get a small leak then it burns a hole right though it.

Anyways, I got about 3 tanks in. 1st one was just tuning getting it running half way nice. 2nd tank fly around a bit, land change a few settings, do it again. 3rd. tank took the pitch up to +17 and head speed of 2100 zipped around. I burned about 1/3 tank, kicked the head up to 2225. Running good, not lean no vibrations, go for a couple of passes bring it back in tail is a blur. Land everything looks good take off again 2 more passes (head is boging at about +16 at 2225) come in for a landing again tail is a blur again. Not sure what is causing my vibration snce it is not there until I come in for a landing.

After about 3/4 tank on the 3rd flight I shut her down to check a few things (header was getting loose again) I FORGET to turn off the radio when I go back to the flight box so when I go to fire the girl back up I am still in Idle Up 1, well needless to say that was kind of interesting. I had my hand on the head and she starts to come to life screaming at me. I just threw the starter up into the air and it starts to spin the Pantera some so I just push down hard on the head and I reach down and pull anything green (all my fuel lines are neon green) so needless to say that motor trying to spin at 20,000+ took my clutch linning out about instantly.

But the good news is, I finaly started to gain some ground again, up until yesterday I would not even be able to get a tank in before I had to stop (this new pipe does not like me). I figure my vibration is in my motor tuning since it is not there until I come back into a landing after actual flight.

If anyone knows someone who stocks 7/8" or 1" couplers drop me a note.

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05-31-2009 03:48 PM  8 years agoPost 98
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando​area)

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Why is the topic of this thread a pink color?


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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05-31-2009 04:34 PM  8 years agoPost 99
wthford

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Monticello, Illinois

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It's not pink on my end...

How can I soar with the Eagles when I work with turkeys??

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06-01-2009 01:37 AM  8 years agoPost 100
heli_headcase

rrKey Veteran

Hovering around​Atlanta

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Why is the topic of this thread a pink color?

I see the topic as blue - the indication that I'm subscribed. <shrug>

For couplers, if silicone is preferred, do whatever is needed to close the gap between the header end and pipe entry. Even consider rolling a springy, stainless tube that makes a direct bridge over the header/pipe gap. You really don't want the hot gasses impinging on the inner wall of the coupler. Erodes fast at high temps.

Better yet, search for 'Viton' tubing, more expensive but holds up to the harsh environment much better than silicone. Not as flexible, not as easy to match to the header/pipe diameter but does the job well.

Lastly you can get/make couplers from Teflon. Vario sells this type and it works well too. Clamping it is difficult though because when hot, it tends to flow or creep a little.

Good luck and always remember to use Throttle Hold and check the throttle servo for correct motion prior to spinning the starter. "Heli Lesson 101"


HHC

So many heli's - too little time...

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HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › Will it GO or will it BLOW
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