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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Breaking in my New Bergen [was: Prepping for the​Big Day...]
03-18-2009 05:33 PM  8 years agoPost 41
chuck4040

rrApprentice

Kirkville, NY ​ Syracuse​Thunderbirds

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Here is the web link http://www.bhhanson.com/

Night and difference - a real pleasure to use the EZ Start.

Invertix

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03-18-2009 05:40 PM  8 years agoPost 42
srhammett

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near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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That's awesome, because it was a true pain yesterday - I thought I'd better start start lifting weights, or eating me spinach!

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03-19-2009 05:18 AM  8 years agoPost 43
Excalibur

rrKey Veteran

Destination: Earth

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Congrats Stu! Way cool, huh?

These big 'ole gas monsters will make a man out of you or have you running for cover with your tail between your legs.

Sounds like things are going well for you. Just take it slow and easy and you'll get there.

The only thing I would have a concern with is the comment you made about idle and your blades spinning. I just want to clarify that "idle" typically refers to the SLOWEST POSSIBLE SPEED the engine can sustain without dieing. If you've got the engine set up at a really fast idle, you may be engaging the clutch enough to turn the blades slightly, which means wear on the lining. As Doug pointed out, it may just be the nature of this particular machine, but just double check to make sure your idle isn't too high.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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03-19-2009 05:38 AM  8 years agoPost 44
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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That's a really good point Excaliber

I just want to clarify that "idle" typically refers to the SLOWEST POSSIBLE SPEED the engine can sustain without dying.
However, in the case where you are using a Jewel, I would opt for the fastest possible idle speed WITHOUT enguaging the clutch. This is as a safety feature where lets say your battery or switch disconnects in flight and everything is OK as you're flying on the jewel, then all of a sudden you hit throttle hold to do an auto. If the idle speed is too low the jewel power will be erratic as the engine speed is erratic, and from testing I've found that if the idle is too slow and there is no battery, the servos can jump or twitch - at least with my JR PCM 649S receiver. That's why the Jewel has a fairly large cap - that allows for slower idles before the servos start to twitch. Anyway interestingly enough, with my tests, the throttle servo twitches towards carb closed it seems, and when it twitches all of a sudden the engine will die. If that happened in an auto, well, you know the rest of the story - incoming dead duck.

Chances are it will never happen, but I think its better practice to idle a little faster than slowest possible when you have a jewel to cover all the fail scenarios.

Since you have a Spectra - the clutch with those does enguage later than the one that was for the 1005, and makes a little faster idle more easily possible without having the blades spin.

Just a thought, but very good point on your part its hardly mentioned and makes perfect sense for people without jewels.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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03-19-2009 05:43 AM  8 years agoPost 45
Excalibur

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Destination: Earth

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Just a thought, but very good point on your part its hardly mentioned and makes perfect sense for people without jewels.
Yup, I was just referring strictly to the engine without the jewel. Thanks for the clarification.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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03-19-2009 11:10 AM  8 years agoPost 46
srhammett

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near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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Day Two!

I burned another tank on Wednesday. It's going pretty well.

Things didn't get off to an auspicious start. At the end of a splendid warm-up run with my Mini Titan, it suffered some sort of mechanical failure and started piroing uncontrollably. The crash damage was minimal - just main blades and flybar - but the swash anti-rotation track was sheared off, one washout arm was mangled, several ball links were gone and the washout block had wrapped the phasing pins around the shaft. The tail was in perfect shape. I'll be doing the complete NTSB workup today.

Anyway - between that drama, a gusty breeze and smallish field, and continuous four cycling, I have yet to bring myself to complete a full turn with the big rig; I always wimp out and bring it back in tail-first. I guess I'm just one of those "people without jewels" you guys mentioned! Oh well, plenty of time for maneuvering once I get the motor broken in and well-tuned. It does handle nicely.

It will idle now without spinning the blades.

The four cycling seems to be more constant now. It seems to be "loading up" more, if that's the correct term. I tried some minute low needle adjustments. I started by opening the needle slightly, per Chris Bergen, just in case I was misreading the situation and it's actually too lean. Then I leaned it back a bit. Neither change made a noticeable difference, but again, the turns I made were tiny. It was always right around 1 3/8ths.

Just to be sure, I'll check the condition of the plug today and make sure it's rich. The tail kicking is pronounced, however, and there's still a fine spray of oil out of the tailpipe. It's bad enough now that it's bogging it down a bit. Should I get a little more aggressive with the needle?

Meanwhile, I'm getting more proficient at the rope pulls. It still takes a few pulls to get it running, however, whether cold or warm.

Raja, the solo headspeed/throttle curve adjustment procedure you recommended with the GV-1 is good. I have normal mode nailed down, and I'm ready to do idle 1.

I'm watching the weather radar and hoping to fly again this morning. I'm really enjoying this. I just hope I'm treating the engine right!

Thanks everybody,

Stu

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03-19-2009 01:24 PM  8 years agoPost 47
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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Eagle Tree logger data, and Jewel output

The Eagle Tree data logger has always been a favorite gadget of mine, and I'm pleased with the feedback it's giving me, both at the field on the LCD screen I've mounted on the Bergen, and after flying on the more robust PC application.

I just graphed throttle servo movement, engine rpms and headspeed (using an optical sensor reading off of the clutch shaft) from yesterday's flying, and it's confirming that I'm getting a HS in the 1650-1725 range in normal mode. It's a little erratic due to the 4-cycling, and if it were running smoothly I suspect it might be a bit high. I'll be able to really dial in my curves when that happens.

It's also giving me temperature readings from a sensor I have bolted onto the engine case. I don't have any illusions about its accuracy, but it is possible to graph the data and see how it varies, dropping during flight, peaking after shutdown etc.(I know, duh - but this is new to me!). The highest temp it's recorded is 185F.

Raja - you'll recall that I bought the "dual jewel" so I'd be set when I start using this machine for AP. Right now, I'm using the "video" output, labeled 11.4V, to power the data logger. It appears to be reading a steady voltage-in right around 5.5V while the engine's spooled up. Do you know why this would be? Next time I'll tap it into the 5.4V-regulated output (which is running to the Rx via the extra port on the GV-1) and see what reading I get there. [Edit: For the record, I apparently screwed up taking this voltage measurement through Eagle Tree. Later tests have showm the output from the Jewel generator to be exactly as promised - 5.4+/- on the outlet regulated for the Rx, 11.4+/- on the outlet set up for video equipment. Sorry, Raja! ]

Thanks guys,

Stu

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03-19-2009 02:50 PM  8 years agoPost 48
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Whoa

The seems strange unless the data logger is giving some incorrect reading for some reason. The only other explanation is that you asked me for two 5.4v outputs as you may have had a 5v video downlink system, but if I labeled it 11.4v then it should be 11.4v.

I would take the two screws off the generator mount to the Bergen frame, pull it out and take the coupler off the AXI motor and put a dremel tool on the motor. Disconnect the plugs of the generator from the receiver and data logger and check them with a voltmeter as you spin the motor on slow speed with the dremel tool. Once you see the voltages, you can plug them into the data logger and verify what it says.

I burn test every unit before it goes out, so I'm sure the output voltages should be what they say. The paragraph above is a way for you to verify that they are and compare to your data logger to figure out what is going on.

What you said is a little contradictory...if you have a dual jewel, how can you be "one of those people without Jewels"?

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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03-19-2009 05:24 PM  8 years agoPost 49
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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[delete]

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03-19-2009 05:47 PM  8 years agoPost 50
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Measure it

Yes definately measure the other output to make sure its right. You can plug that into your data logger to see what's up and run up without a generator on the receiver for that quick test.

Another tell tale sign is a video filter board on the output of the regulator for the video system. The regulator for the receiver (5.4v) should have no boards between it and the connector.

If you connected the 11.4v into the receiver side, the battery will suck down the voltage to maintain the lower voltage closer to the battery level, but that would be too high of a charge rate for the receiver battery since its not regulated with a resistor. Its like me using a solar panel for my TX battery to recharge on the field. The solar panel outputs 20v, but when I plug it into the TX the voltage will drop to the battery voltage and the battery starts taking a charge. I put a resistor to limit the current to the TX battery, and that system works fine.

I may have goofed up and mislabeled the two, but that is very unlike me as I'm pretty particular and double check all my work. If I did you'll know when you test the other regulator output. Anyway check it and lets get to the bottom of this.

When you fly, the generator voltage should show around 5.4v all the time, maybe drop to 5.3v with serious load. Regulators vary slightly in voltages so it can be as much as 0.1v difference between one and the next one.

At rest, its very possible for the battery to be around 4.9v to 5.1v depending on how long its been sitting. If you fly all day with the Jewel it can get as high as 5.2v, but if you wait a week or two it can drop back down to 5v due to internal resistance. The key thing is when you take off the voltmagic should move up from whatever level it was showing on the LEDs. Remember that its range is from 4.8v to 5.5v by default. so if the battery is at around 5v, its going to be about the 3rd LED from the low side which is yellow. When you spool up it will move up to about 1 green LED from full range with that default setting, +/- 1 LED depending on the regulator output.

Do some tests and let me know what you find.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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03-20-2009 10:13 AM  8 years agoPost 51
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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[delete]

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03-20-2009 01:50 PM  8 years agoPost 52
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Do the test first

I would say just unplug the generator output from the receiver, plug it into your data logger, and hover the helicopter in your back yard for a minute then go back in the house and check the readings in your shop.

Lets get that done before you fly any more and make sure you have things plugged the right way. If you want to talk about this PM me your number and I'll be happy to give you a call.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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03-20-2009 03:46 PM  8 years agoPost 53
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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[delete]

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03-21-2009 09:48 PM  8 years agoPost 54
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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Bum bulb?!

Today, I went over the bird carefully, found nothing of consequence except the muffler needed tightening. Then I set out to run the test on the generator, and after that to make a big dent in the rest of gallon #1.

I powered up, did final checks, choke on, and pumped the bulb, and then - nothing. I pumped and pumped, but only a few little dribbles made it up the intake line to the carb. Nothing made it into the bulb or return line.

The line isn't clogged. There was no resistance when I pressed on the bulb, and it popped right back up. The gas pump had no problem draining the tank later. There was air leaking somewhere up at the carb. I could hear it: kind of a quiet, slurpy whistling sound. At first I thought the bulb itself had been punctured or torn, but apparently not.

I loosened the carb there at the field. I don't have much of an understanding of these things yet. I thought a loose gasket seal between the carb and insulator, or back behind the insulator, could be at fault. Everything was tight, though. I looked at the carb from every angle and couldn't see a problem.

I guess I'll pull off the plate behind the bulb and have a look. I assume there's a diaphragm or something back there that's out of place.

Has anybody seen this before?

Stu

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03-22-2009 05:15 AM  8 years agoPost 55
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I have this same problem

From time to time with my 1005 carb. If the machine sits for a long time sometimes the primer bulb doesn't prime until many many pushes and when it gets wet enough then it goes normally and then will work fine for the rest of the flying day.

I have found that pulling the pull starter a couple of times seems to fix it quicker sometimes. I think there is some valve in the carb that is stuck which is not allowing the primer bulb to suck the fuel in when it goes back to shape after you push it in.

Maybe Billme can comment about this better than me. I've sort of ignored this problem and have not tired to fix it as of yet.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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03-23-2009 12:59 AM  8 years agoPost 56
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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workaround for primer problem

I had a great time today flying the Bergen. Still just hovering around, tweaking this and that, but I'm getting the feel of it. Pure pleasure. Drew quite a crowd of gawkers too. It's such an impressive machine.

I got past the problem with the primer. I detached the fuel supply line from the carb and clamped off the vent line before I pumped fuel through the return line. When fuel backed up through the supply line, I pinched it off and stuck it back on the carb so the gas stayed in it. This primed the primer, as it were. After a couple of squeezes of the bulb, fuel flowed freely.

Stu

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03-23-2009 02:08 PM  8 years agoPost 57
torenhg

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Orange County, SoCal

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excellent idea with the starting board.

If anyone has photos of the electric start operation please post a link

350QX
Trex 450
Shuttle ZXX
Fury 55
Spectra G
Furion6
Trex 500

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03-31-2009 11:53 PM  8 years agoPost 58
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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End of gallon #1 in sight!

Hey gang,

The lousy weather here has persisted. I finally took the gasser out for day #4; it was a pretty day, but gusty, and I don't want to load the engine too much at this point fighting the wind. So I retreated to a protected hollow with just about enough room to hover. It was good, though.

The primer bulb's working again, but's still a little hard starting. Raja's solo throttle curve setting system using the GV-1 is the bomb. It's still a bit hard to start. I ran continuously through both of the two tanks, hovering for a few minutes, sitting down and idling, then hovering again. Let the engine cool down all the way between tanks. Surprisingly enjoyable. Hypnotic almost, all the hovering with the big rig.

I've been leaning it out VERY small increments, and I'm still closer to 1 3/8ths than 1 1/4. It still 4-strokes a lot at idle and while spooling up and lifting off, but then it gradually smooths out until it only kicks, say, three or four times a minute? Something like that. The obvious vibrations subsides with the four-stroking. I may be getting close on the low needle. I wish there was somebody around here I could show it to who would know.

I checked the plug after the first tank, and I think it looked really good. Nice medium brown and a bit oily.

Well, I just wanted to touch base. I wish I had some challenging problems to present! I'm trying my best to do this break-in right, but I'll be glad when it's done.

Stu

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03-31-2009 11:59 PM  8 years agoPost 59
Doug Darby

rrVeteran

Dallas, Texas

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So glad to hear things are progressing well for you...

I passed another hurdle with mine on Sunday.. put it inverted into the trees and to the ground.. (ugh)

Oh well I did get 28 flight prior to "breaking" it in "properly"..

Parts will be here tomorrow and it will be a good time to install the new Wally Fan and get back at it..

For now I will practice my inverted with my 600E and be better when the Condor flys again.

doug

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04-01-2009 12:24 PM  8 years agoPost 60
srhammett

rrNovice

near Seneca Rocks,​West Virginia, USA

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Oh man! That's a drag! I'd be a basket case. Hope the repair goes smoothly for you.

Me, I've never flown anything bigger than a 450, so this is kind of intimidating for me. I'm not going to be in any hurry getting into stunts.

I'm focusing more on AP I think, looking at different gear etc. Not real heavy, a nice light setup so I can take full advantage of the long flight times, and have a nice-flying machine for shooting video. This is a big rock climbing area; I hope to use my Bergen to shoot some climbing vids among other things.

I'm thinking about shelling out some major cash and putting a Helicommand on it.

Stu

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