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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Need help with PHT3 problem
12-29-2008 02:18 AM  8 years agoPost 1
autorotater

rrNovice

California

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I have been home on leave and wanted to fly my Vario Huey today. It has been about two or three months since I was home last so the heli has been sitting. It was hard to get it to fire. It took several starts but once she finally started then all seemed good. I am using the regular butane start. I spooled up and went in to a very low hover to check all the systems. After about 12 to 15 seconds the turbine would drop to idle speed and ofcourse the heli would touch down on the ground.

I could switch my radio to idle and back to full power and the turbine would spool right back up and run full power for 12 to 15 seconds and drop down to an idle again. It continued to due this over and over. I even went to full power and let it set on the ground and zero pitch and after the same time period it went to idle again. Can you guys just get me started in the right direction to help troubleshoot this problem.

The temps seem fine and it says there are 0 failsafes so I don't think it is going to failsafe. This turbine only has just over 4 hours on it. Any help would be appreciated.

Dan

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12-29-2008 03:08 AM  8 years agoPost 2
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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Vent on the fuel tank blocked? It will cause fuel starvation as the tank empties over a short period of time. A longer period if idling. Check and see if the tank is collapsing or if the vent line is kinked or blocked.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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12-29-2008 03:53 AM  8 years agoPost 3
Dakine

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OC, Commifornia

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Mr. Wales,

In your opinion, if the heli is not going to be flown for approximately 4 months, should we empty the header tank or leave it wet and filled?

Thank you

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12-29-2008 04:24 AM  8 years agoPost 4
autorotater

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California

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Peter, the vent line didn't appear to be blocked but I will take a closer look to make sure. Would the line being blocked cause the govenor to kick the engine down to an idle or would it flame out all together? Seems like something is causing the govenor to kick down and it does it everytime at about 12 to 15 seconds. Tot doesn't seem to be high either. I will report back after re-checking the vent line on the fuel tank.

Thanks for the help
Dan

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12-29-2008 05:03 AM  8 years agoPost 5
seattle_helo

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Seattle, WA USA

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Dan, what are your fuel pump values? Also, did the engine ever shut down on its own or just go to idle RPM? Did the GSU display offer any clue with an unusual OFF CONDITION (OC) code?

It seems wierd that it would reduce RPM's if your temps are all within normal range. Are you certain nothing in your transmitter programming changed?

nick

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12-29-2008 09:13 AM  8 years agoPost 6
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Dan, Sounds like fuel starvation
DO you have a UAT fitted?, if so has it been allowed to dry out? did you soak the UAT for 24 hours prior to flying?
Some times over prolonged periods, the fuel vents away leaving the oil residue, not enough to block the filter system, but certainly restrict it
FLush and check the fuel system, post anything you find, intersesting problem
Peter R

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12-29-2008 01:14 PM  8 years agoPost 7
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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As I am sure you know, turbines are not like gas engines. If you pour more fuel into a turbine, it doesn't run rich, it runs faster. Hence, my first guess was a lack of fuel causing it to run slower.

You had checked the GSU temp values and I assume you had checked everything else on the GSU and it reported nothing unusual. A good indicator of fuel starvation would be a high pump voltage as the pump tries to get more fuel into the motor to keeps the rpms up. Have you checked the fuel filters if any?

I tend to discount anything mechanical as these turbines have enough power to tear most mechanical problems to pieces and make the problem obvious due to bits of helicopter all over the place.

Yes, Tony, leave the fuel in the heli. It wont go bad or rot the fuel lines

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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12-29-2008 03:46 PM  8 years agoPost 8
paul999

rrApprentice

ilford essex

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on my hotcat PHT-3 i had a problem with it flaming out after about 2-3 mins flying always seemed to be when i landed it, so was lucky it did not happen in flight,peter rob got the data from the ecu and sent it to jet-cat turned out it was a faulty fuel pump and the fuel pump was not that old,new pump fitted and it was all back to normal again im no expert in turbines but it might be a idear to get the data from ecu send it by e mail to jet cat and see what they say

regards
paul

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12-29-2008 06:55 PM  8 years agoPost 9
Héli Suisse

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Geneva Switzerland

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Hi Paul and Dan,

The idea of inquiring into the pump function is a good idea. If you go to this thread http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t471912p1/ you'll see what happend to my pump fortunately on ground.

Let us know the results of your investigations

best regards Happy New Year!

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12-30-2008 12:27 AM  8 years agoPost 10
seattle_helo

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Seattle, WA USA

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Speaking of filters, I threw out my aluminum ones a long time ago in favor of using the clear ones from FESTO. Not only are they leak proof without having to prep the threads and mind the O-ring like you do with the aluminum ones but you can simply see the filter element inside to get an at-a-glance view of any obstructions.

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12-30-2008 05:08 AM  8 years agoPost 11
autorotater

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California

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Thanks for all the great ideas you guys came up with. I went through and checked every one of the things you guys mentioned and I am embarrased to say I found the problem. I thought for the heck of it I would re-learn the radio to the ECU and walla everything is back to normal and good to go. I must have accidently changed a value on the radio while I was flying my other helis back in Alabama and didn't realize it. I'm sorry to waste everyones time but I must say I did learn some things from the things you guys posted and will be checking some things I haven't checked for in the past.

Thanks again, I can always count on you guys to get me headed in the right direction. I appreciate all the quick replies. And I like the clear fuel filter idea as well.

Dan

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12-30-2008 09:30 AM  8 years agoPost 12
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Learn RC

Dan, Thanks for your honesty,
You are not the first this has happened to,Maybe a lesson learned here.
At the start of any Turbine management issue, LEARN RC,
Peter R

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01-13-2009 04:08 AM  8 years agoPost 13
James

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Del Mar California

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All of you are real troopers helping out autorotator. I take my hate of to you all for your knowledge and expertise and care for some ones machine. I know who to turn to if i need help

flying is the easy part paying for it whole different story

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02-15-2009 01:16 AM  8 years agoPost 14
daytonabeach

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Oslo, Norway

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A little OT here, but since the problem have been solved...

How often, or do you feel that a fuel pump failure or similar that prevents the fuel to reach the turbine have caused engine cut or/and crash as a result of that?

Im just asking cause im considering a turbine heli, but not if its considerably more unreliable than a electric...

What would you say the failure percent is on a turbine compared to an electric, pros and cons?

Thanks!

Chris

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

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02-15-2009 07:44 AM  8 years agoPost 15
James

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Del Mar California

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well this is only my experience, i have a fairly new turbine so i do not have that many hours on mine to say . But i have a lot of friends about 20 of them that have turbines like the jetcat. Evan though i hear of problems sometimes, I would have to say i see nothing but hours and hours of use on my friends turbines. They are having good experiences with there machines. Just my view point others may not agree . But jetcat, is making there turbines better and better they are always looking for improvements . The place were i have purchased my jetcat has a huge inventory of jetcats turbines, and they are a big seller of this turbine, So i know many people that own them. If you want pure smooth power , go turbine. I like electric, but to compare turbine to a electric helicopter two totally different machines.

flying is the easy part paying for it whole different story

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02-15-2009 09:34 AM  8 years agoPost 16
daytonabeach

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Oslo, Norway

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Thx for the heads up James!

More input from others are also welcome

What would you say are the top 3 causes for a engine cut on turbines, air in the fuel hose, loss of power in fuel pump?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

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02-15-2009 11:33 AM  8 years agoPost 17
Richard

rrVeteran

Scottish Borders,​U.K.

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The only problem I have ever had with my PHT3 apart from crash damage! was a faulty pump. The pump was replaced by Jetcat without a problem.

Oh **** ! this is going to be expensive?

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02-15-2009 11:39 AM  8 years agoPost 18
daytonabeach

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Oslo, Norway

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Did it cause any fatal problems, or did it only prevent the turbine to fire during start?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

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02-15-2009 11:57 AM  8 years agoPost 19
Richard

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Scottish Borders,​U.K.

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The only problem was the turbine speed fluctuating slightly during flight, this was quite noticable during the hover. I down loaded the ECU flight data using the Jetcat software and sent it to Jetcat and they could see it was a pump problem straight away and sent me a new pump.

Oh **** ! this is going to be expensive?

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02-15-2009 12:06 PM  8 years agoPost 20
daytonabeach

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Oslo, Norway

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Thats great

I keep hearing about fuel pump issues all the time, but then i guess you normally get a forewarning that indicates that something isnt working as it should, and therefore are able to fix it before it cuts in the air?

Never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience...

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