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HelicopterScale Model RC Helicopters › Scale Build Rules
12-25-2008 08:47 AM  8 years agoPost 1
ba board

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England

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If you wish to enter a machine into a scale competition then how much of the actual build do you have to do yourself?

I am fairly certain that I have read somewhere that you have to complete a certain percentage of the build to claim it "as your own" but I'm not too sure of the rules, or even where to find them.
UK only please as I'm fairly certain that the rest of the world will have different rules regarding this

I am not hinting that I am going to buy something prebuilt, by the way, it was a question raised by my club regarding a report in a Magazine.

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12-25-2008 09:32 AM  8 years agoPost 2
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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You will find your answer on the BMFA web site, where you can either look or download the competition rules.

As far as I am aware , the rule does not apply to anything else, other than BMFA or international competitions.

modtron
Oxford UK

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12-25-2008 04:25 PM  8 years agoPost 3
ba board

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England

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Thanks a lot, found the bit I was looking for.
The entrant must have constructed his own model

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12-26-2008 09:09 AM  8 years agoPost 4
DenisS

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england

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None of the helicopter scale comps use this rule, otherwise there would only be three or four models allowed. If you enter at the Nats you would have to enter the fixed wing competition as there is no helicopter scale comp there, and the fixed wing rules will apply, where you will have had to build the model yourself. Best to check the fixed wing rule I think. Unless the bit you found applies to helis, then please post a link. Thanks
Denis

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12-29-2008 06:22 PM  8 years agoPost 5
ba board

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England

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Not too sure where to go now. The piece I quoted came from the BMFA General Scale Comp rules and to my knowledge didn't say anything about being FW specific or Heli specific.
If this info applies only to FW then what is the criteria for Helis?

If there aren't any rules for helis, then why not? or can you just buy a completed fuselage, add a few stickers and enter it as your own?

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12-30-2008 09:52 AM  8 years agoPost 6
DenisS

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england

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I think the main reason for there being no scale rules is because for a long while scale was out of fashion. When 3D became the norm this seemed to take over everything. Now that the 3D envelope has been pushed so far there are a lot of us (yes, I include me!) that know that we will never become competitive at even the basic levels now, so a resurgence of scale is happening. People can fly a good scale routine (which still requires skill, but may not require lightening reflexes) and have a good looking heli to boot. The problem I see happening at the moment is 'cheque book' scale modelling, where people throw money at a model, have it built professionally, have it painted professionally, buy all the scale fittings, and then enter it as their own model! The other thing that is happening is that it seems to be that in order to do well you must fly a turbine engined model. That rules out scale comps for a lot of people too. It may be that scale will go the way of 3D and F3C, where only sponsored (or professional) pilots will be able to be competitive. Sad, really, as there are a great many good builders and fliers that get put off purely because they are up against 'paid' pilots.
Back to the rules issue - if you want to see a set of nationally applied rules then get involved with the BMFA or the scale scene and get something together. The AHA (Aerobatic Helicopter Association) seems inaptly named when it comes to scale flying so people don't associate them with scale models, but they are there as the helicopter arm of the BMFA so maybe you could start by talking to them...
Denis

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12-30-2008 11:46 AM  8 years agoPost 7
Bignose

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Hear hear!!

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12-30-2008 03:31 PM  8 years agoPost 8
AdeH

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Kent, UK

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Here here

Well Said Dennis!

When ever you tell people you fly RC helicopters they invariably ask if you can fly upside down and do a 'loop the loop'. Such is the allure of 3D. Personnally I find 3D pilots a bit stuck up (Arrogance or confidence....a fine line!), and it bored me rigid. (that is purely my opinion and not necessarily reflected by any other pilot or RunRyder!)

This does of course exclude Dennis S as he is one of us, and a nice bloke to boot as it happens!

This year Eynsford club (in Kent, UK)ran a scale competition, with simple rules that EVERYONE could follow and EVERYONE could enter, and there was no pressure to perform, no egos, and it felt like all those entered were awarded on merit. THATS how it should be!!

We in the UK all remember Sandown park. How often did you see the top pilots hammering the latest and lets face it blinged, heli around the finish poles! More than 70% I think. If it wast for Century UK, would there have been any scale flying???

Is 'chequebook' modelling such a bad thing?
Yes, if as Dennis suggests, people buy already done and palm it off as their own work. I agree.
No, if it introduces new people to scale helicopters.

And I learned something today. The AHA actually deal with scale helis...has anyone thought to tell them that! I have for years assumed they are the Aerobatic Helicopter Assoc. Does what it says on the tin!
I once spoke to a member of the said AHA (who shall remain nameless) once and he asked what discipline I flew,
"Scale" I said proudly with puffed up chest.
"Oh" was is his disappointed reply.

So off my soap box. Maybe us Scale boys should now start the revolution....right behind you Dennis!

Happy landings
Adrian

After scale everything else is a toy!

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12-30-2008 03:35 PM  8 years agoPost 9
ba board

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England

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Perhaps we should start a "Scale Helicopter Association"

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12-30-2008 04:09 PM  8 years agoPost 10
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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This year Eynsford club (in Kent, UK)ran a scale competition, with simple rules that EVERYONE could follow and EVERYONE could enter, and there was no pressure to perform, no egos, and it felt like all those entered were awarded on merit. THATS how it should be!!
Perhaps quoting those rules which you liked would be a good place for you guys to start discussing exactly what you want for a set of rules. In the US we have been developing a ruleset for some years and its still a work in progress. Each year, someone finds a way to take advantage of something omitted in the rules and then we have to find a way of evening the score without penalizing anyone else.

We decided that anything we could not police, we would allow, which gives a lot of freedom to the guy who wants to win at ANY PRICE. However, winning at static with a bought model wont guarantee a win as it has to be flown and usually the checkbook modeler is reluctant to go out and practice with his expensive acquisition in case he breaks it and cant fix it.

So far our rules here are working pretty well with only one character causing difficulties with his efforts to win without being the best.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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12-30-2008 05:38 PM  8 years agoPost 11
AdeH

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Kent, UK

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Great Idea

I think I should head up the Scale Heli Assoc.

So I will be the:
Chair of the
Association of
Scale
Helicopters

Therefore make all cheques out to the above please!

Ha ha
Ade

After scale everything else is a toy!

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12-30-2008 05:39 PM  8 years agoPost 12
AdeH

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Kent, UK

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Hows about this

Hi Peter
As you are half UK anyway, can't we just nick your rules??

Its a thought

Adrian

After scale everything else is a toy!

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12-30-2008 08:23 PM  8 years agoPost 13
DenisS

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england

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Well, how about that, people actually agreeing with me!!! Hi Peter, I know you have your rules available online, I don't suppose there is a copyright on them is there? I, or we, could approach the AHA and see if we can get something official as far as scale rules are appied to helicopters. It should not hinder the kind of event that was held at Eynsford (a great event, by the way), but maybe ome sort of league could be started, flown to rules (AMA ?) to count towards an end of year trophy. If enough of us are interested then it will happen, builder of model rule and all. The tricky bit comes when trying to draw the line at how much can be done by the pilot and how much can be professionally done. Personally, my paintwork stinks, but all my scale comp models have been painted by me, but I have to buy in vinyl stickers etc. None of us build our own engines from scratch (well, very few) and most of us buy the mechanics and fuselages. Now it gets complicated.. does a scratch built fuselage score higher or should the scale aapearance only be taken into account. I'll have to read the American rules and the fixed wing rules to get a better understanding. Also, the closeness of the judges varies according to the level of comp entered in fixed wing, that is to say, there are 'stand off' rules, i.e. no closer than 6 feet or so, then there is the F4C (correct me if I'm wrong) where the judges almost climb inside.
Let's all get the ball rolling, anybody want to PM me and maybe we could set up a scale committee for the AHA??
Denis

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12-30-2008 08:54 PM  8 years agoPost 14
Bignose

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England

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This does of course exclude Dennis S as he is one of us, and a nice bloke to boot as it happens!
Are there two Denis S's then?
Some very valid comments made - and of course you will never stop the guy who will do anything to win. Eynsford, in my humble opinion, has been the friendliest, best run, best supported Scale meeting in the UK for the last few years.

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12-30-2008 09:00 PM  8 years agoPost 15
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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There is absolutely no reason why you should not use the current rules from the AMA, in fact I encourage it. WHY? Well, one of my dreams is to have a WORLDS scale helicopter competition and that requires a unified set of rules. I have been waiting for our rules to be in force for a couple of years with no changes or problems and then was going to approach the FAI about adopting them for a world championship.

Part of the intended plan was for the top 5 in each countries Nats to enter the worlds, but that requires each country to hold a Nats. I was hoping that John White would support this through the Vario funfly but the first competition 2 years ago, got blown away so it kind of died a death, especially as I wasn't there to kick some rear end this year. Now it's down to you guys. If you want it, go for it. Either John or Sean should be able to host it somewhere.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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12-30-2008 09:22 PM  8 years agoPost 16
DenisS

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england

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Well, that's settled then, I'll download the AMA rules and get a comp together early in the new year. Hey, Bignose, where have you been? If you have time come over to Jeffs tomorrow, I should be flying my Bell 47.
I will contact the AHA and see the best course of action in order to make things official. Peter, if you could PM me with the loopholes that are being exploited I will put some thought into it.
Hope you are well, btw.
Denis

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12-31-2008 11:51 AM  8 years agoPost 17
Bignose

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England

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DenisS - hi matey. Hope you had a good Xmas. Been a bit busy with other stuff lately but hoping for some nice weather before the New Year so that I can blow the cobwebs off a model or two.
Be good if you could get this idea off the ground. I am sure with your piloting skills, that you can make it fly

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12-31-2008 12:58 PM  8 years agoPost 18
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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Remember the AMA rules were not only written for Nats competition standards, but for a local funfly as well, and as such a guy with a Shuttle and a pre painted Funkey fuse should NOT be excluded. It all relies on the documentation. Hence,the builder of the model rule is very relaxed and it is possible to get Len Mount to build you a master piece and then fit your Benzine trainer in it and meet the requirements.

Another item under discussion is whether the flybarless bonus should remain the same due to the introduction and constant improvements being made in V-stabis and the like. Personally, I think it should as these things are about as hard to set up and get used to as a good flybarless setup. Others disagree, but they seem to be the people who make these things or fly them on 3D machines.

I'll pm you about the last one Denis

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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12-31-2008 01:21 PM  8 years agoPost 19
AdeH

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Kent, UK

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Exclusions

Thinking about this I think we should draw up a list of "experts" who should be excluded to give us mere mortals a chance.

Len Mount for one....
Lee Marshall for two....

What about that Peter Wales chappy? He's pretty good!
What about the other Essex kid, young Stretton? He's a bit smart with a scaler too.
Oh, and theres the Robster from Devon way, Mr peter Robinson.

All of a sudden, those Shuttle/Funkey fellas are in with a shout!

Only kiddin guys.....

Ade

After scale everything else is a toy!

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12-31-2008 02:10 PM  8 years agoPost 20
DenisS

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england

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AdeH,
You make a good point lol... I think another big problem will be that of who to use as judges. They must be familiar with various makes of fullsize helis and the way they fly. Documentation sorts the static part out but what about the difference in the way a R22 flies as to the way a Super Cobra flies, or a Skycrane? It can get too complicated but we have to start somewhere, so adopting the AMA rules seems to be a logical step, as Peter, (the Master) pointed out, you should still be able to enter with a Shuttle?Funkey, you may not score as highly but at least you entered.
Thanks for the replies guys. I will be in touch with the AHA in the new year
Denis

P.S. Thanks for the info Peter

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