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HelicopterMain Discussion › Flybar-less Q's?
12-23-2008 11:57 PM  8 years agoPost 1
Ghostrider

rrElite Veteran

San Diego, CA

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All the talk about going flybar less has me curious but honestly I have talked to people that think it completely sucks and people that say it's the greatest thing ever.

What's the skinny? Does it work great or is it still in the infant stage and needs much improvement?

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12-24-2008 12:06 AM  8 years agoPost 2
Futura SE

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Fayetteville,​Arkansas

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Sam,
As you know well I believe it is pretty dialed in for electrics. For an electric I believe the V-Bar is pretty well dialed in.

For Nitro it is not so simple. There have been a lot of flybarless N9's and most report various degrees of success. The problem with nitro machines is vibration and with a system like a V-Bar you have triple the amount of sensors. of a normal flybared model. You have to make sure where you mount the sensors does not flex, have vibration you were unaware of and etc and etc.

Matt Botos is pretty well THE authority for the V-bar in an nitro model. He has been flying a flybarless system on a nitro as long or longer than anyone. E-mail him and get his thoughts on the subject.

Norman Ross Jr.

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12-24-2008 12:10 AM  8 years agoPost 3
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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A lot of people, including myself, are haveing great success with SK360s on nitro helis. My 600N flies better than I could ever get it to with a flybar. You can have it super stable in FFF and hovering and also have a super fast flip and roll rate at the same time.

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12-24-2008 12:33 AM  8 years agoPost 4
raptorheli2

rrElite Veteran

rip off britain and​no changing it

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^^^^ try doing anything piro with it and then come back.

cheers


www.waterfoothelis.com

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12-24-2008 01:32 AM  8 years agoPost 5
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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I really can't comment on the piros because I can't do to much of it but my point is that it isn't just for electrics. Everything I can do it hasn't dissapointed me.

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12-24-2008 01:40 AM  8 years agoPost 6
Ronald Thomas

rrMaster

Gainesville, Fl, USA

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I think if you are a noob and you are trying to setup and tune a flybarless machine, you should do as much reading on the system you are using as possible. I have a Logo 600 Vbar and I played **** trying to get it set up by myself. I got the help of Carlo (Of Probar) and he got it setup for me in short while Now i am trying to learn everything about what each function does so that I can have a full understanding of what each function does.
Mikado says that the new black sensor Vbars are better suited for nitros and I know a few people using them with great sucess.
Personally I would not go flybarless until I was extremely proficient at normal heli setups, otherwise the frustration level will exceed the fun level .......Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-24-2008 01:43 AM  8 years agoPost 7
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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Exactly. It is a big learning curve. The SK360 is supposidly easier but doesn't have as much adjustability as the V Bar. I haven't used a V Bar, this is just what I have heard.

I went down the videos and found the first one that said flybarless. This guy doesn't seem to be having any problems with piros.

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t474561p1/

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12-24-2008 01:53 AM  8 years agoPost 8
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Whats the problem with piros?

Ok, I only have 9 flights on my vbarred Vibe 50 (nitro) but I like what I experience so far.

The Mikado Vbar is comparable to Chess. It only takes a few minutes to make a heli flight worthy but years to master everything completely. The amazing thing of it is that even if you configure everything wrong (except sensor direction) the sucker will still fly lol.

Anyway, back to the original question. Is it worth the investment? Well that depends on the point of view.

Its worth it if:

a) you're a scaler and want that super scale multi blade head
b) you're a power junky and you want more and more and more
c) you're a 3D guy that wants to flip and roll like nobody else
d) you're a technologic geek and like to mess with electronics
e) you live in a area with generally alot of wind and you're not that good at flying with it.

Its NOT worth it if:

a) you're a sports flyer that wants to fly around with some mild acrobatics
b) you're happy with your current setup (in terms of roll and flip rate)
c) you hate messing with electronic parameters and you're known to screw up even while programming a 401.
d) you think you're going to be a better flyer due to it (quite the opposite actually).

Personally I'm d) from the first section. My bird was flying just fine and I only went to vbar because my friends were pushing me into it so I could setup their birds later on. Do I like the added power? Sure I do. Do I like that wierd feeling like a ghost hand holding my heli in a hover? Well... no. I'm sure I'm going to get used to it though. Do I like the fact that I can change from a super stable setup to a wild horse at the tip of a switch? Definitely. Does the heli behave more like a sim heli? Yes. Will it make you fly better? No. It will actually make you a little more lazy as you won't be correcting the heli all the time.

All in all, its cool and its fun but hardly a necessity.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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12-24-2008 01:57 AM  8 years agoPost 9
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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The amazing thing of it is that even if you configure everything wrong (except sensor direction) the sucker will still fly lol.
From personal experience, that is not quite true

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-24-2008 01:58 AM  8 years agoPost 10
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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I'm b, wannabe c, and d.

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12-24-2008 02:05 AM  8 years agoPost 11
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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From personal experience, that is not quite true
Well I just setup a guy's heli and discovered that he was using e-sensor parameters (he has a gen 3 vbar n-sensor), had tail compensation inverted and the piruette optimization backwards. Not to mention that his paddle weights were REALLY wacked not to mention PSI and Bell values. I'm still amazed how that guy could do any 3D with the machine but it flew. Had some really odd quirks but it flew.

Tony

PS - He actually wants to put piro optimization backwards again as he was able to do piro circles without touching cyclic lol


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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12-24-2008 02:08 AM  8 years agoPost 12
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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Mine would get 2 feet off the ground and go into instant death mode! It would start to wag side to side uncontrollably but Carlo fixed it...all is good now.......Ron

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-24-2008 02:09 AM  8 years agoPost 13
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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oh but it took off didn't it?

Tony

PS - There was a wierd parameter in a early vbar software version that would cause some serious oscilations. Can't remember what it was but I watched a Stratus explode in a poodle of water after the pilot doing 3 aileron tic tocs which transformed into a series of uncontrollable tictocs until the bird hit deck. But once again, it flew


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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12-24-2008 02:09 AM  8 years agoPost 14
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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With the SK360 you can definately set it up wrong and have it unflyable. I changed a bunch of things on mine at once a few weeks ago and must have messed something up because I lifted off and it started the wildest oscillations I have ever seen. I barely got off the ground and was lucky I got it back down without damage. It looked like it was doing a hula dance.

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12-24-2008 02:10 AM  8 years agoPost 15
Ronald Thomas

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Gainesville, Fl, USA

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oh but it took off didn't it?
LOL

Team MikadoUSA 480XXTreme, 550SX, 600SX, 700XXTreme, 800XXTreme!!

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12-24-2008 02:21 AM  8 years agoPost 16
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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I changed a bunch of things on mine at once
THats usually the mistake most of us do (me included).

The trick to set up a virtual flybar system is:

a) make it flyable
b) write down everything you don't like
c) start fixing one issue at a time
c1) learn the parameters associated with your issue. Learn them well
c2) work on the paramters until its perfect
d) move to the next issue.

A few weeks back (when I started with the vbar), my tail would dance in a hover. Not in flight, just in a hover. I played with the gain, I played with the PID values and it got better but never perfect. While I was standing there looking at the bird I suddently realised something really important... the tail was DANCING not wagging! The 3rd axis gyro can't make a tail move in every direction, just sidewise right? Anyway, I started to think about that and in the end I figured out that the heli was woobling so slightly that it was only visible on the tail. I had my gyro deadbands set too high (its a nitro bird afterall) which would make the vbar correct too late so it would allow some movement before starting to correct. This was only visible in a hover. I reduced the deadband by 2 points on all axis and voila... ghost hand appeared

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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12-24-2008 02:35 AM  8 years agoPost 17
rcmike

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Dickson, TN

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Yeah, I learned from it. I reloaded my old setup and started with one thing at a time.

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12-24-2008 04:06 AM  8 years agoPost 18
Ghostrider

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San Diego, CA

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Thanks Tchavei,

You pretty much answered my questions in one post...LOL

I think it's just more stuff that I don’t want to mess with at this point and I don't love tweaking and certainly don't have the time to do so. For now, I will stick with a flybar until you guys that love this kind of tinkering get it all dialed in for those of us that don't.

Very much appreciate the input and allowing me and my curiosity to move on until they are a little more plug and play.

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12-24-2008 06:05 AM  8 years agoPost 19
BJames111

rrElite Veteran

San Diego,​California

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Thanks Tchavei,

You pretty much answered my questions in one post...LOL

I think it's just more stuff that I don’t want to mess with at this point and I don't love tweaking and certainly don't have the time to do so. For now, I will stick with a flybar until you guys that love this kind of tinkering get it all dialed in for those of us that don't.

Very much appreciate the input and allowing me and my curiosity to move on until they are a little more plug and play.
I feel pretty much the same way.

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12-24-2008 10:59 AM  8 years agoPost 20
raptorheli2

rrElite Veteran

rip off britain and​no changing it

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my point is none of the fbar systems know the heli is piroing so the timing is slightly out when the heli is piroing/flipping. example would doing piro flips.

i know a couple VERY good pilots who has tried the sk360 and promptly took it off because it goes weird while it is piro metroing, piro walls etc. the same can be said of all flybarless units but mikado have been doing it far longer and subsequently have the fine tuning down pat so much so that you would barely notice a difference with that and a flybared machine.

cheers


www.waterfoothelis.com

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Flybar-less Q's?
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