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12-26-2008 05:35 PM  8 years agoPost 41
Joe Bennett

rrNovice

29 Palms, CA

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Mark,

I requested access to the RCAPA website uncounted times so that I could change and modify, add and correct, problems that continue to plague it. Was never given the needed access, and things still are not done that need to be fixed. One of them is the lack of a current list of the Board of Directors. That is one reason that I took it upon myself to add it to the RCAPA Reporter as a regular part of both the printed and the online versions. It is still there, though I am not.

As far as my own relationship with you Mark, I think I talked to you on the phone 1 or 2 times, and we exchanged a very few Emails as well. I was always cordial with you, and felt your ideas and submissions had merit. I did not feel that a major change in the way the original (and successful) RCAPA Exam and Self-Certification program would have been an idea who's time had come, at least without some work on how it would be administered. A fully automatic process sounds good, but the lack of human oversight would have diminished the "accountability" from the users to a point that the integrity would have been compromised, at least in my opinion as the then current Director of Flight Standards. I wanted to work with you on these issues, but never received any responses from you, in part it seems due to other Board Member issues.

I still think that your ideas had/have merit, and do believe that they would be beneficial to the AP community if presented to them. But that is your decision totally. I would rather see you a part of any potential solution though Mark. Thanks....

Joe

PS

As far as where and who Gary is, I do not have a clue. I was not privie to everything that went on either.. JB

Joe Bennett

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12-26-2008 05:47 PM  8 years agoPost 42
BigguyOz

rrKey Veteran

Forster, New South​Wales, Australia

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Once more, the tone of the thread slides down into the cesspit of accusation and negatives.

for goodness sake people, this thread was started by iflybyu77 to concentrate on a solution, but instead the same old venom is sprayed.

Once more....
What do you propose should happen next??????

Tony Stott

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12-26-2008 05:53 PM  8 years agoPost 43
xfc3dcd

rrApprentice

West Carrollton,​Ohio usa

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TC,

Any attempts to "democratize" the process at this point would lead to uninformed chaos.[quote]

I disagree. It is a critical olive branch to those who hesitate to support RCAPA at this time. I'm sure something very similar to your comment was spoken by the British right before the Boston Tea Party. It's a funny thing, people are willing to die for the right to vote and, once granted, most won't even use it. I guess we as people just want the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing we have at least been given the choice.

Wendell

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12-26-2008 05:55 PM  8 years agoPost 44
Joe Bennett

rrNovice

29 Palms, CA

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Tony,

No venom here.

I think that there should be a redirection of all of this anger and concern toward the true source of our problems. The FAA should receive requests for accountability regarding the ARC process, as well as the very valid opinions of those concerned with the future of AP. Making RCAPA the continuing "bad guy" does no one any service. The FAA should be the target of these emotions and not your fellow APers. Contact the FAA, your Congressmen/women, and any others in government that might make a difference in this battle. Contact your local papers about it, or even 60 minutes and let them know what is happening from a personal standpoint. That is what should be done, at least in my humble opinion. Thanks Tony....

Joe

Link to FAA - http://www.faa.gov
Link to Congress - http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/

Joe Bennett

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12-26-2008 06:00 PM  8 years agoPost 45
HawkEyeMedia

rrApprentice

Fort Worth, Texas

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Tony, several of us here have clearly stated our personal opinions in a public forum in an effort to answer David's questions. The discussion's can't always be sunshine and roses. From conversations I've had with other operators, I think a lot of us share the same sentiment with regards to RCAPA. There have to be changes made before I'll support them. Period.

I've written my congressmen and women. I've made phone calls. I'll go back to business as usual like most of the other serious operators who frequent this forum.

Trying to get involved in this thread has been a waste of time.

Mark LaBoyteaux
HawkEyeMedia.com

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12-26-2008 06:23 PM  8 years agoPost 46
BigguyOz

rrKey Veteran

Forster, New South​Wales, Australia

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Mark, your earlier post suggested that changes to the structure of RCAPA might be the solution. Can you please flesh out what you would see as an accetable structure?

I don't always agree with Joe, but he is 100% correct on one thing, if a fraction of the energy directed at RCAPA was instead aimed at the FAA and government representatives where it belongs, the situation might be very much improved....

Tony Stott

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12-26-2008 06:25 PM  8 years agoPost 47
xfc3dcd

rrApprentice

West Carrollton,​Ohio usa

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Patrick,

I didn't take any of your comments as being remotely "snarky". They are all valid concerns. I guess I just have really thick skin over my very large ego.

I have inserted some of my thoughts below -

1. Who do we propose is going to do all of the work? I guess I would need to know more about what the specific work is you are referring to. I for one don't think a total RCAPA overhaul makes sense at this time. I just think RCAPA would be more successful if the rank and file had organized input and representation

2. Who do we propose will pay for attorneys and filings for the non-profit or manage the project? We looked into, I did the paper work on another 501 (c ) (3)and it wasn’t fun, nor is the reoccurring paperwork, fillings etc. I personally don't care if RCAPA is non-profit or not so long as the communities views are represented in an open, organized manner.

3. Do we put all efforts on hold until the bones of the association are sorted out? I don't think that makes sense.

4. While all of this is going on do we stop fundraising? I think if RCAPA immediately accepted nominations for district reps, fundraising would increase dramatically. I for one would donate.

5. Do we spend all of this capitol on the association or integration?
(Unfunded ARC meeting end of January) I would try to do both, funds permitting, but I think the ARC is the more pressing matter.

5. Is it a good time to change horses with the ARC being close to completion? I'm not sure what you mean by "change horses". You are on the ARC and are familiar with the process. I don't see why that needs to change.

6. Who is, or will be qualified to make those decisions? What decisions?

8. Knowing up front that a higher level of participation does not translate into immediate full participation, are you still willing to jump in If you are referring to me personally, as I said before, I am willing to help in any way I can.

9. Are people willing to really commit for 6 to 18 months of participation I don't know. I'm sure there are some that are very passionate about all this. Passion is a powerful force.

10. Any good estimates for the time it would take to complete the transformation? Nomination/voting for district reps could happen in 2 weeks I would think. These reps could then have input into what the priorities should be going forward

11. Proposed budget and income stream to complete the aforementioned?
I would take it one step at a time. The income stream dictates the budget.

[quote

These are just my views. I would like to hear some others also.

Wendell

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12-26-2008 06:36 PM  8 years agoPost 48
patrickegan

rrKey Veteran

Sacramento, CA

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Wendell,
Thanks for answering! I thought they got glossed over. I’ll go over them after more folks have a chance to chime in.

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12-26-2008 07:21 PM  8 years agoPost 49
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

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Remember in the old days when RCAPA's position was "NO REGS!"? And the "FAA, AOPA, are simply incompetent, turf-owning EVIL empires!"?

There was another organization (or two) who weren't so far off-base from what many more now understand. They (RAPA & MACO) had their rear-ends vicously ripped and participants thoroughly demonized to the point where RCAPA commonly name-associated new dissenters with the demon.

John probably has moved on and lost much enthusiasm for the fight but, all RCAPA member axx-ripping aside, seems his direction was not that far from the mark. http://zaneraviation.com/maco.htm

He perceived that FAA regs were inevitable and enforceable. His offerings demonstrated an understanding of the FAA world in terms of certification and such (of that time).

He might've failed the press-to-test test in terms of how hostile attacks are handled and not going 'tilt' but he's only human (unlike me).

If you go back and look at those discussion and attack threads you'll see that the attackers were largely uninformed and way-way-off-base. You might get a laugh at some of their old assertions.

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12-26-2008 08:10 PM  8 years agoPost 50
iflybyu77

rrKey Veteran

Fort Wayne, IN

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A few more questions arose as I read through some of what Patrick and Joe have written. Perhaps one or both of you would be so kind as to clue us in..

1. I'm a little confused as to what was said about RCAPA being owned privately and therefore not open to voting. Is that a correct summary?
  • Rick Connolly - Co-founder/President
  • Gene Robinson - Co-founder/SAR
  • Patrick Egan - Director of Special Promotions
  • Ira Buckley - Director of Public Relations
  • Mel Duval - Special consultant to Board of Directors
It's nice to have a list here. I knew all the names before, but there are a few questions I'm sure all would like to know. I know some of the answers as well, but again, I'm sure it would helpful for all.

2. Who are these gentlemen, and what are they currently involved in, affiliated with, and what is their interest in being part of the ARC process?

3. Personally I've rarely seen posts from the majority of those on the list. (I frequent RCG/RCU/RR/APL) How can "we" communicate with them and learn more about them?

4. Do they read threads such as this, where thoughtful discussion takes place? Do they care?

5. Do they understand that viability is directly related to public interaction wtih their members?

6. Maybe most important in discussing whether WE want to be a part of RCAPA is do THEY want RCAPA to be viable?

I know as Patrick has stated before that the listed individuals above have questioned why Patrick continues to try to wrestle words with the general AP community. That makes one stop and think maybe they are losing interest in keeping it viable?

I still believe that RCAPA would be highly potent as a advocate for us if "we" knew more about what we were supporting. We'd support with our $, we'd support with phone calls, we'd support with our time. Let's get the air clear, and get the ball rolling.

I believe that membership + donations might be viable. I'll pay my AOPA dues, I'll pay my AMA/IRCHA dues, why not pay dues to an association that supports my business and not just a "hobby" Seems like supporting your business is worth more than those other interests. I'd say you'd have a more reliable revenue stream if we could get all these things cleared up. Then maybe Joe could go on those ritzy getaways compliments of the RCAPA membership.

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12-26-2008 08:28 PM  8 years agoPost 51
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

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Another question is, why the discrepancy between two recent statements in that other thread?

Patrick wrote:
We’ve never said RCAPA had it all figured out. We have some of it figured out and it is as follows.
1. Regulation is coming.
...

Patrick wrote:
All I'm saying is, here is an opportunity to self regulate,anyone interested?

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12-26-2008 08:50 PM  8 years agoPost 52
patrickegan

rrKey Veteran

Sacramento, CA

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You don’t want to self regulate if possible?

In the words of my AOPA sponsor “being regulated sucks!”

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12-26-2008 08:57 PM  8 years agoPost 53
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

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So, regulations are NOT coming. Somebody tell Paul RC-AP Revere to abort.

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12-26-2008 09:00 PM  8 years agoPost 54
patrickegan

rrKey Veteran

Sacramento, CA

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Tom,
I’ve showed you how to work the FAA web page, do we need to go through it one more time?

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12-26-2008 09:03 PM  8 years agoPost 55
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Yes, please show me on the FAA page the part about 'opportunities to self-regulate'.

We'll be reguluated
We'll be regulated not
We'll be regulated
We'll be regulated not

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12-26-2008 09:06 PM  8 years agoPost 56
papatango

rrVeteran

Toronto, Ontario,​Canada

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Cue circus music.

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12-26-2008 09:11 PM  8 years agoPost 57
patrickegan

rrKey Veteran

Sacramento, CA

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12-26-2008 09:27 PM  8 years agoPost 58
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

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Not a very long document. Nowhere did I read that the outcome will be self-regulation. I guess you're pulling something from the confidential ARC/suas meetings because we all know you only post honest facts, even when they conflict with other honest facts.

But there you have it boys, loose lips sinks ships. Regulations are coming but opportunities exist to self-regulate. Now guys, which self-regulating organization offering fits you? You have choices.

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12-26-2008 09:38 PM  8 years agoPost 59
patrickegan

rrKey Veteran

Sacramento, CA

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After this thing goes to the NPRM, I think I’ll volunteer to work with the mentally challenged. Do you have any experience? Why yes, I had 5 years of trying to get something meaningful accomplished in a couple of hobby forums.

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12-26-2008 09:47 PM  8 years agoPost 60
totu

rrApprentice

Colorado

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and..."Unfortunately sir, After 5 years I found I was mostly fighting my own deamons and ghosts of those I demolished. But you know what my mom always told me: 'While there are bitter lingering aftertastes from bitter though albeit miniscule victories, bad experiences occasionally lead to better judgement. Something like that.' ".

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