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HelicopterOff Topics › Help With Pistol Selection
12-22-2008 07:21 AM  8 years agoPost 21
RonHill

rrVeteran

FLL, FL

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hockeysew

You want a firearm that is going to require a dedicated , deliberate thought to discharge. And a Glock is not that firearm.
Pick something with a heavier, longer trigger pull and possibly a safety you MUST disengage.
Not going to change your mind, but do not forget in high stress situations complex motor skills deteriorate. A good read on the degradation of motor skills due to stress is "Solider Performance as a Function of Stress and Load: A Review".

The effects of stress on the body is broken down into three main areas:
  • Perceptual Distortion - loss of peripheral vision and depth perception, hearing may be blocked or impaired, changes in pain sensitivity, etc.
  • Cognitive Impairment- the emotional centers in the brain become dominant and creative or logical thinking are impaired. You may hallucinate, experience time distortion (slow motion or fast motion), you may even forget what you did or “remember” something that didn’t happen.
  • Motor Skill Deterioration - the ability to perform certain physical actions is impaired by stress. Actions requiring eye-hand coordination, precision or coordination are likely to fail. However, other actions will actually be enhanced by stress.
Motor skills:
  • Fine Motor Skills - are actions involving small muscles, dexterity and eye-hand coordination. The ability to perform fine motor skills deteriorates at low to moderate levels of stress.
  • Complex Motor Skills - are actions that combine three or more steps or actions in a sequence requiring timing and coordination. At high levels of stress, the ability to perform these skills is also impaired. Many martial arts techniques are complex motor skills. This explains why techniques that may work fine in low-stress training sessions fail in a high-stress street-fight.
  • Gross motor skills- are simple, large-muscle group actions like squats, push-ups and push/pull-type movements. Unlike fine and complex motor skills, gross motor skills DO NOT deteriorate under stress. In fact, they are enhanced by the affects of fear and stress.
A safety is a fine motor skill. Drawing down is a complex skill. Being attacked is a high stress situation.

Here is a video that explains the problem:

http://blog.robballen.com/archive/2...y-too-many.aspx
"Thats when I fired the first round...But the gun did not go off cause the safety was on. I completely forgot about it. So I was like, 'whats wrong?' and I cocked it back again and the live round flew out. Oh and then I realized that the safety was on and I flipped it up."
He forgot it was on safe (1), then racked the slide thinking there was no live round in the chamber (2), then finally remembered the safety (3). If his attacker was not walking....Things could have gone bad.

What to take from all this?

1. Pick a weapon that has as few steps as possible to make ready but that includes features that will prevent accidental discharges. Here I think the Glock is top notch (Springfield XD as well, but I like the Glock).

2. Train like hell.

Some will disagree...And that is fine. I don't expect to convert anyone, but the info above is important and should be taken into consideration.

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12-22-2008 07:26 AM  8 years agoPost 22
fiveoboy01

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Waunakee, WI - USA

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My opinion is that the Glock(or any "saftey-less" pistol) is fine for a first handgun, because it forces you to learn the 4 rules and how to handle the gun.

If you follow the 4 basic rules, there should be ZERO fear of a negligent discharge. Notice I did not say accidental, because aside from a mechanical malfunction, ALL "accidental" discharges are actually negligent ones.

Mikado Logo 400, hopefully ready by spring.

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12-22-2008 09:21 AM  8 years agoPost 23
Aaron1100usrrApprentice - Cedar Rapids, Iowa - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

A Glock doesn't have a safety that you manually have to use, it does have safeties though. Three infact. The gun will NOT go off unless your finger squeezes the trigger. The gun will NOT go off if you drop it. And what about when you are in a situation and you have some other brand of gun and you forget to take the safety off? No fiddling with a Glock, just squeeze the trigger, don't have to think about a manual saftey. And no worries about it going off unless you pull the trigger, just can't happen. Takes less than 5 seconds to take apart to clean. Simple, will never rust, can take thousands of rounds without cleaning (don't recommend), will probably never jam or have a mis fire if you use good ammo.

I've had my Glock 22 (.40 caliber) since 2001 and have never ever had a jam, its never mis fired. Plus its light wieght and feels good in the hand. Even in cold weather, the plastic does not feel cold. And in the warm summer months, you can still grip it well with sweaty hands. Basically the perfect fire arm. Yeah, it may not be as "flashy" as others but it does exactly what its made to do and be as safe or safer than any other handgun out there.

There are arguments for all types. But as mentioned before, a gun that feels good in your hand helps a lot too. There are several different sizes and calibers of Glocks. You can even get compensated ones. Go to your local store and see if you like any. Personally, I'd get .40 .45 caliber for self defense.

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12-22-2008 12:37 PM  8 years agoPost 24
DavidR

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Oxford, MS

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Look at the S&W M&P's as well. I have one in 9mm and another in .40 both shoot very well are not flashy and comparable to the glocks. I don't care for the way the glock feels in my hands, but that's JMHO.

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12-22-2008 07:24 PM  8 years agoPost 25
Salty

rrElite Veteran

St. Augustine

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Some very good advice here...(5-oh boy, hockey, Ronhill on the finer points of motor skills)

And that brings up my point about motor skills (nothing to do with the original topic but worth mentioning)

In training the trainers that have been around the block a few times recognize the fact that some motor skills go away. I train with gross motor movements cause I know fine motor movements will be impaired if not gone when the SHTF.

Look up the "workstation" principle. All gross movements and highly effective reloads with no wasted energy. Start at body mass only then find a range that you can move and shoot. Run jump and exert yourself then draw a bead on a target and see what happens. Exercise stimulates adrenaline with simulates some (notice I did not say all) of the conditions provided by stress....if you can shoot good after you sprinted 75 yards, hurdled 3 waist high objects and gone under three low objects (belly crawl) and pumped out 20 pushups then you'll prob do allright when the SHTF. Once you get good at that, go to head shots, always good to know but not as often used. I personally train a "failure to stop" drill (or the non-pc "Mozambique drill". Two to the chest one to the head.

And yes I do that with my rifle too.

As far as guns, get what fits you and stick with it, in stress you remember what you train. I used Sig's for many a year then changed over to Glocks in the last three years, When I first started fighting Glocks I kept going for the de-cocking lever...

Just a nice little stat. It only takes 100 repetitions to imprint a habit but 1000 repetitions to break that habit. In other words, dont get bad habits.

Ask your Doctor if getting off your ass is right for you.

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12-22-2008 09:24 PM  8 years agoPost 26
AirWolfRC

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42½ N, 83½ W

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What ? ?

nobody likes HK ? ?

and KAHR for backup ?

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12-22-2008 10:36 PM  8 years agoPost 27
dave75d

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Jacksonville, FL

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KAHR for backup ?
i hope it never gets bad enough i need a Kahr for backup. by then, i'll use a round for myself.

ten grand in helis and all i can do is hover

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12-22-2008 10:39 PM  8 years agoPost 28
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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It's small, does the job and hasn't failed.

What's the problem ?

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12-22-2008 11:21 PM  8 years agoPost 29
Diverig

rrNovice

Wyoming

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Colt Goldcup 1911 in 45ACP

This is what I carry and has never failed me at the range so no doubt if I have to use it in defense it wont fail.

I own a Glock21 not reliable in the least jams or stovepipes all the time from day one and nothing has fixed it.

Taurus PT99AF in 9MM reliable but the 9MM is just a bit too small.

Rugger super redhawk in 44mag just to big to hide but very reliable

Desert Eagle 44mag same as the readhawk just to big to hide but flawless.

Tanfoglio Giuseppe GT27 in 25 auto this thing is junk the only harm you could do is poke an eye out if you threw it at your assailant.

Stay with what works a colt in black and a set of good sights (the reason for black is its harder to see in the opening of your coat than a SS flash.

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12-22-2008 11:32 PM  8 years agoPost 30
Captain Obvious

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Here

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I'll never fly another Horobo. Raptors are better

If you are looking to carry, small is good, the likelyhood that you would ever need one is so remote that most folks with a permit rarely bother to carry even a small one.

The CZ 75 type are great but they are a frigging brick and too nice to be lugging around exposing it to everyday wear and tear. ( i have a cheap copy of the CZ. love it, but it is a brick) Not suitable for carry IMHO. Have a look at the new Walther PPS, small and very thin, but still provides adequate grip to be OK as a plinker. easier to conciel than any of the previously mentioned.

There are some good gun forums around that have profesional reviews. highly recomend getting advice at a real gun forum.

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12-22-2008 11:56 PM  8 years agoPost 31
Blademan

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Morehead, KY

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Here you go Mr. Green

454 casull

CHP

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12-23-2008 12:29 AM  8 years agoPost 32
fiveoboy01

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Waunakee, WI - USA

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What ? ?

nobody likes HK ? ?
Oh yes... USP .45 Tactical is a gun I've lusted after for years. Just haven't dropped the $ on it(yet)....

Mikado Logo 400, hopefully ready by spring.

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12-23-2008 01:36 AM  8 years agoPost 33
jadams

rrKey Veteran

East coast USA

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I would say:

Glock 26 or 27
Kel-Tech 9mm
Ruger LCP for pocket carry

Bersa .380

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12-23-2008 02:16 AM  8 years agoPost 34
AcerrrNovice - Loveland, CO - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I use a CZ P-01, it is a great 9mm and much smaller than the full size CZ-75. I have shot over 1000 rounds out of it with no cleaning to test how it shoots dirty. Haven't had one FTF or FTE with it so far.

Besides that, it is EXTREMELY accurate for a small pistol. 12 ga shotgun hulls standing at 10-15 yds. make for a fun, and not very challenging target with this pistol.

So, if you like the CZ-75 but want something smaller and much lighter, look at the CZ P-01. It is also the new NATO sidearm.

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12-23-2008 03:20 AM  8 years agoPost 35
philthewrench

rrApprentice

Westchester Co. NY

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Whatever you pick, TRAIN TRAIN AND TRAIN!
All the firepower in the world is useless if you dont know how to engage with it.
If you follow this bit of advice whatever firearm of good quality you choose will do it's job.

Phil

... and now my impression of a lawn dart .......

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12-23-2008 04:47 AM  8 years agoPost 36
rcsoar4fun

rrKey Veteran

Boise, Idaho

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Shoot whatever you want to buy. The CZ75 is a damn fine gun, no one will fault you for buying one. The 1911 is my platform of choice, but expensive. To hear someone call the CZ a block is funny, they are very comfortable. The Glock is like shooting something made out of 2x4.

I give up on Loctite, nothing lasts long enough to vibrate loose anymore.

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12-23-2008 03:20 PM  8 years agoPost 37
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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The Glock is like shooting something made out of 2x4.
I have stayed away from Glock for that main reason. I originally found myself lusting for a SIG but once I wraped my hand around an HK, I was sold.

Another note, I find that the kick from a glock 17 (9mm) is still more than the HK compact (40SW)

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12-23-2008 04:11 PM  8 years agoPost 38
fiveoboy01

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Waunakee, WI - USA

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I happen(ed) to own a G17... What kick?

Mikado Logo 400, hopefully ready by spring.

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12-23-2008 04:13 PM  8 years agoPost 39
RoscoerrApprentice - garfield Hts.,ohio -​USA - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Detonics Combat Master 45 cal. (pocket 45)
I've had one of these for years, very nice, accurate small handgun... if you can find one, or someone willing to part with it.
And, Made in the U.S.A.!


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.

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12-23-2008 04:19 PM  8 years agoPost 40
whirlyspud

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USA

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Airwolf, Have you ever looked into who owns and runs KAHR. That alone rules them out for me.

Mike

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