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HelicopterOff Topics › Downwind faster than the wind
10-13-2008 05:44 PM  9 years agoPost 21
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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Well I just watched that youtube video of it.

It looks pretty convincing!

Spaceman spiff-I don't think the prop reverses direction in the video. But the little streamer clearly shows the machine is travelling with a relative headwind. (i.e. faster than downwind)

Assuming there's no cheating (gravity, motors, rubber bands), it looks like it works.

All I can guess is it goes upwind in the same manner as a sailboat tacking upwind?

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10-13-2008 07:33 PM  9 years agoPost 22
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

Here's an interesting test...Climb to 150' with your pet heli, point the nose into the wind, hit the hold switch...DO NOT go to negative collective, and watch what happens...Some fun, Huh??

John.

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10-13-2008 07:52 PM  9 years agoPost 23
Rafael23cc

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Junction City, KS

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Anybody notice that there is some sort of drive between the wheels and the prop? Or am I seeing things? How would you explain the prop not moving with the cart stationary, and start moving inmediately as the lady pushes the cart forward?

Rafael

Keep your feet on the ground, but your eyes on the sky.
Team Heliproz.com

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10-13-2008 07:56 PM  9 years agoPost 24
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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The mythbusterfan links talk about how it is the difference between ground/wind that makes it work. The only way to bring groundspeed into the forces is to tie it to the prop. So you're right. The prop and wheels are geared together.

It did say it takes more than 4 knots of wind to overcome friction and move.

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10-13-2008 08:29 PM  9 years agoPost 25
drdot

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So. California, Orange County.

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fwiw..

Anyone here so far familiar with the sailing term "in irons"?..Sporks' polemics aside, I'd love to see this truly proven, or disproven...I go back to the car running on water..If spork is serious abot 100 K, I'll be glad to try the experiment I mentioned before...Ther should be plenty left to fix my heli!

JOhn.

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10-13-2008 08:59 PM  9 years agoPost 26
Tintin

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Akershus, Norway

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Yes I'd really love to know how this is done and why should I not make such a comment? If you can get this thing working, you would in fact only need to get your car rolling to be able to continue forever.

If you theory is right you wouldn't need any initial wind to make it work. Just give it a push and it will keep on rolling. Initial wind would only make it go faster.

Why not just get hold of someone that can model this thing in Gambit/Fluent and get a final proof? It's easy to put in the parameters needed if someone would just draw the cart. To bad this didn't come up 8 years ago, I'd happily modelled it myself...currently I don't have the software needed..

“Getting an inch of snow is like winning 10 cents in the lottery.”

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10-13-2008 10:09 PM  9 years agoPost 27
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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None of the models so far have any practical application.

Show me one with a passenger and now we're talkin!

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10-13-2008 10:15 PM  9 years agoPost 28
Adams

rrApprentice

Champaign Il. USA

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The car is traveling at slightly less than wind speed but the wind sock is in the prop blast making it appear that it is traveling faster than the wind. Put the wind sock on the front of the car out of the prop blast and the wind direction will show that the car is actually traveling downwind at a speed less than the wind. Pretty good trick however!!!!

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10-14-2008 12:51 AM  9 years agoPost 29
1stPlace

rrApprentice

Ohio USA

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I'm with Spork on this one! There are two methods that will propel the machine faster than the windspeed!

Diejenigen, die nicht lernen aus den Fehlern der Vergangenheit bestimmt sind, zu wiederholen.

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10-14-2008 01:40 AM  9 years agoPost 30
spaceman spiff

rrKey Veteran

Tucson

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Show me one with a passenger and now we're talkin!
here ya go:

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10-14-2008 03:31 AM  9 years agoPost 31
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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>> Spaceman spiff-I don't think the prop reverses direction

That's correct. The prop doesn't change direction or pitch.

>>All I can guess is it goes upwind in the same manner as a sailboat tacking upwind?

Oddly enough, it's precisely the same principle - measured in a different inertial frame.

>> Anybody notice that there is some sort of drive between the wheels and the prop? Or am I seeing things?

You're absolutely right. There is a belt drive between the rear axle and prop-shaft.

>> Sporks' polemics aside, I'd love to see this truly proven, or disproven...

Well then you're the perfect person to have the debate on the Mythbusters site. The whole object is to get them to demonstrate it on the show.

>>If spork is serious abot 100 K, I'll be glad to try the experiment I mentioned before...Ther should be plenty left to fix my heli!

I'm absolutely serious about the $100K. PM me to make the arrangements.

>> Yes I'd really love to know how this is done

And I'll be happy to explain it to you in unbelievably graphic and detailed terms - on the Mythbusters site.

>>and why should I not make such a comment?

I never said you should not make a comment. I said that if you understood what was being claimed you WOULD not make the comments you made (based on incorrect conclusions).

>> If you can get this thing working, you would in fact only need to get your car rolling to be able to continue forever.

Not true. Want to know why? I'll tell you all about it on the Mythbusters site.

>>If you theory is right you wouldn't need any initial wind to make it work.

Not true. Want to know why? ...

>> Just give it a push and it will keep on rolling. Initial wind would only make it go faster.

Not true. Want to know why? ...

>> Why not just get hold of someone that can model this thing in Gambit/Fluent and get a final proof?

Because I have final proof in so many forms it's mind boggling.

>> It's easy to put in the parameters needed if someone would just draw the cart.

I've already posted the vector analysis based on very conservative parameters - guess where.

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10-14-2008 06:47 AM  9 years agoPost 32
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Great - the MENSA club has arrived.
This is an observation of such exquisite poignancy that it works like a torque wrench for Human Beans worldwide -- whether drenched in tequila or sober.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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10-14-2008 06:56 AM  9 years agoPost 33
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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>> ...whether drenched in tequila or sober

I'll have to take your word for it. It never occurred to me to come on this forum sober.

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10-14-2008 04:07 PM  9 years agoPost 34
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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drdot said:
If spork is serious abot 100 K...
After a couple of PM exchanges we've established that spork is entirely serious about the $100K wager - and that drdot is not (for religious reasons, market setbacks, or just being unsure of his position).

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10-14-2008 05:10 PM  9 years agoPost 35
drdot

rrElite Veteran

So. California, Orange County.

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Fwiw..

See my earlier remarks...I don't believe this CAN work...I AM a detractor...If we parse vectors, relative wind, etc....yes, it could work close hauled...But the original idea was dead downwind, correct?

John.

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10-14-2008 05:49 PM  9 years agoPost 36
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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It can work, dead-downwind, faster than the wind, steady state.

That's what I'm willing to bet $100K on. That's what you bluffed I might not be serious about. Will you take the bet.

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10-14-2008 06:29 PM  9 years agoPost 37
Captain Obvious

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Here

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And I'll be happy to explain it to you in unbelievably graphic and detailed terms - on the Mythbusters site.
Because I have final proof in so many forms it's mind boggling.
If mythmusters wants to recrute folks from RR to discuss this maybe they should have sent Kari. Or Buster.

Could be an interesting show, but there needs to be some way to segway explosives into the test.

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10-14-2008 07:06 PM  9 years agoPost 38
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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>> If mythmusters wants to recrute folks from RR to discuss this...

They don't

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10-14-2008 07:54 PM  9 years agoPost 39
Captain Obvious

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Here

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Apparenty you don't either...

This thread starts out fine. Very interesting topic. Then it just gets all pissy, and conflicted. Here you are mythmustering, (assembling a myth) but doing it right alongside working models, even a working full scale sitting around for decades and "mind boggling" proof. Then you top it off with dismissive insults and massive bets in order to get a detractor you asked for to back down?

You say you are here to recrute discussion, but it looks like just a bunch of chest beating to me.

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10-14-2008 11:04 PM  9 years agoPost 40
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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>> Apparenty you don't either...

Of course I do. But there's clearly not a thing I could possibly do to get anyone to join us on that site. The naysayers are just that. They have no argument or evidence. They call Jack a liar, but they don't take him up on his offer to see it with their own eyes.

I guess I can understand someone not wanting to travel to FL to take Jack up on his invitation, but not being willing to simply post to another site in order to see the Mythbusters do this... that just drives the point home to me. No one that has ever denied this has even the slightest conviction of their beliefs.

>>
Here you are mythmustering, (assembling a myth) but doing it right alongside working models, even a working full scale sitting around for decades and "mind boggling" proof.
<<

And yet there are still people that "claim" it breaks every law of physics. The simple fact that it's easily proved, and violates no laws of physics, doesn't disuade the deniers at all.

>>
Then you top it off with dismissive insults and massive bets in order to get a detractor you asked for to back down?
<<

I offered a choice - he could discuss it on the Mythbusters site and get all the information and discussion he would ever want, or if he was absolutely certain it can't be done, he could avoid all that bother and take my $100K bet. I don't want him to back down. I'll be THRILLED if he discusses it on the Mythbusters site OR takes my bet.

>>You say you are here to recrute discussion, but it looks like just a bunch of chest beating to me.

If you mean begging, I guess you're right. But no one here has enough conviction that it is impossible to have the discussion.

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HelicopterOff Topics › Downwind faster than the wind
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