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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › New Pull-Start on Spectra-G
07-13-2008 03:46 AM  9 years agoPost 1
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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While speaking with Al at BH Hanson regarding various gasser related issues, I mentioned to him that I was having a bit of a problem with the pull-start system on my Spectra. I had recently installed Raja's Jewel Generator (beautiful thing by the way!) and therefore had lost the ability to top-start. The stock pull-start had been giving me a bit of grief, which was probably due to my inexperience with gassers. (Yes, I did watch Raja's YouTube video). I mentioned to Al that I would like to switch over to one of the metal recoil rings since I had worn the engagement tabs off my plastic one (incorrect pulling technique).

http://www.bhhanson.com/pull%20start%20ring%20Alum.JPG

It was during that conversation Al brought up the idea of using a new or different type of starter. This may or may not be new to most guys, not sure. He said this particular starter has a type of internal spring assist that makes it easier to pull. I can definitely attest to that! So for the same price as the stock pull-start (about $36) I had him send me one. It looks like this:

http://www.bhhanson.com/ez%20recoil%20starter.jpg

I waited until my stock pull-start fell apart and just recently finished the installation of the new one. The problem is that the new pull-start does not readily adapt to the Spectra-G. If you take a look at the cast aluminum housing part in the link you will notice it has 2 black tabs. These tabs (technical term I believe is "paws" ) are spring loaded inward to engage the spiral recoil ring flats. The paws fly outward when the engine RPM speeds up.

Anyway, the aluminum housing threads onto the bottom end of the crankshaft below the flywheel. The length or height of the threaded portion on the top of the housing was not tall enough to clear the carbon fiber baseplate on the Spectra. So, we made a new aluminum housing (turned on lathe) and swapped the spring-loaded paws over to it. The new housing has a taller threaded "boss" that moves it far enough away from the baseplate.

OK, that problem was solved. However, we still needed to be able to mount the pull-start housing to the baseplate. Realizing there will be opinions on this, I elected to permanently mount it. Again, I fly this thing like a full-size Bell 407...very scale-like. So I don't care what it weighs. You will see in the photos an aluminum plate (didn't have any carbon fiber of the right thickness) that I mount the pull-start to. The plate lines up with the bolt pattern for the engine which puts the center-line of the pull-start right on the center of the crankshaft. (Thanks Raja for the spare spacer plate, it made easy work of laying out the holes.)

The aluminum mount plate has 4 holes in it that line up with the holes on the pull-start housing, again on center with the crankshaft. On the top side of the plate we pressed in (4) 4mm PEM nuts:

http://www.mcmaster.com (search for item# 94100A130)

The housing is then fastened to the plate with 4 allen bolts as you see. The aluminum plate thickness is critical to the proper engagement between the spinning aluminum housing and the recoil ring in the pull-start. Fabricating our own aluminum housing allowed us to fine-tune that engagement.

Very long-winded story but I thought I would share this with you as another way of starting the Spectra. This in combination with reverting back to the stock intake and choke system (thanks again Raja) has made starting my TRM-231 a breeze. Raja, I did put on a new Walbro 643 carburetor and things are so much nicer. Just need to dial in the needles a bit because it shows up in the form of a tail wag.

Let me know if you have any questions. I will probably feed this info back to Al at BH Hanson.

Thanks

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07-13-2008 05:05 PM  9 years agoPost 2
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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Pictures added.

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07-13-2008 05:37 PM  9 years agoPost 3
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Interesting!

So how easy is this to start compared to the stock starter? I've heard about these starter from Hanson but never really seen one. Some day if we meet at some field I'd like to give it a whirl and see how it feels.

As far as being permamently mounted, personally I'd rather not as that is another 5oz or the weight of a battery pack to add on top, but hey, if you flying casually around its not a problem at all, remember that many other brands weight more to start anyways.

Good work on getting this installed!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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07-13-2008 06:50 PM  9 years agoPost 4
pgkevet

rrKey Veteran

Wales

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correct me if I'm wrong ..but isn't the problem with the spectra pull start one of adequate engagement? You need the shim under the dog to lift the dog clear....but using a thick enough shim loses thread length for that dog??

If that premise is correct then extending that threaded length outwards is the correct answer? Or not screwing the dog down as far and drill/tap/cross machine screwing it?

I'm short on free time at the moment but a drill hole in the pull-start and a video-endoscope in there might be worth doing later..

pgk

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07-13-2008 06:56 PM  9 years agoPost 5
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Correction

There is no problem with the Spectra-g pull start. By design you do need to add a washer under the dogbone so that there is more enguagement but there is plenty of thread left on the dogbone not to cause any issues. I've been pullstarting mine with the stock starter/setup 504 flights now and had no problems with the dogbone ever coming loose.

Citationx had problems getting the right technique to start the gasser with the pull starter hence why he went to this setup which seems much better for him. Its just another way of doing things and he's showing it here as an option to others who might want to try it.

I made the "how to start a Spectra-g" video to help you guys with the starting technique as if you follow that you too can have 500 flights+ / starts on your stock starter setup.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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07-14-2008 02:36 AM  9 years agoPost 6
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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pgkevet,

I understand where you are coming from on the dog issue. When I was struggling with my stock pull-start, Raja through out the question that maybe I didn't have the proper washer spacing under the dog so that it would make it stick out just slightly more. This was in fact the case. I added a 2nd washer and could easily tell by the witness marks on the recoil ring and dog that I was getting nearly full engagement.

The issue with the Hanson pull start and the stock cast aluminum housing is that I could only thread it on maybe 1 full turn and the top side of the housing, out near the edge by the 4 holes, was contacting the bottom side of the thick carbon fiber baseplate. Those 4 holes you see, 2 of them contained the top of the post and circlip retainers for the black plastic "paws" that stuck up out the top of the cast housing. This is what ultimately led us to fabricate the round aluminum housing you see mounted. We made the threaded portion taller so that the housing would clear the baseplate.

Raja,

The only way for me to describe it is that this starter feels like it has a spring assist to it. Even that is what Al at BH told me. I don't have to yank anywhere close to what I had to on the stock pull-start. It is very smooth. Just as a side note, I think my pull-start success, even with the stock one, would have been greater had I just replaced the carburetor a long time ago. Knock on wood, this thing was a piece of cake to start every time today at the field. Even the guys at the field commented. One guy said, after watching me start and fly, "are you going to run that engine in your weed-eater when you get home?". I think the new (used) air cleaner and choke arrangement helped out a lot too. Noise level is noticeably lower. How much do I owe you for that???

Thanks guys

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07-14-2008 05:58 AM  9 years agoPost 7
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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It arrived...cool!

So the air cleaner arrived safe and sound, good to hear! I sent it but forgot about it to ask you if you got it or not. With that you'll be down to 2 pulls when cold, one pull when hot as in my video.

Don't worry about the price, enjoy it! I don't need it and this hobby is about giving, so from me to you!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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07-14-2008 07:03 AM  9 years agoPost 8
pgkevet

rrKey Veteran

Wales

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I understand where you are coming from on the dog issue. When I was struggling with my stock pull-start, Raja through out the question that maybe I didn't have the proper washer spacing under the dog so that it would make it stick out just slightly more. This was in fact the case. I added a 2nd washer and could easily tell by the witness marks on the recoil ring and dog that I was getting nearly full engagement.
Once again, I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to get it right (and let's face it I'm messing up pretty well here)...The manual drawings show to remove the nut under the dog and replace with a thinner washer..less proud and less engagement? This appears to superceed the written statement to use the thicker hex nut.

Perhaps instead of messing about with endoscope I'll just go low-tech and use a touch of colour on the dog edge and see how high that engagement is and adjust if necessary

pgk

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07-14-2008 11:39 AM  9 years agoPost 9
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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pgkevet,

I see what you are saying. In my particular case I performed a dimensional stack-up of all the mating components in the pull start and determined that added a 2nd washer did the trick. My old stock pull-start eventually stripped the threads holding the screw in the black plastic housing. Took it apart and the recoil spring came flying out. Next stop...trash can. It's done. I am now using the BH pull-start.

Raja,

Thanks for the air cleaner. It in combination with the new carb and pull-start have made life much much easier.

Thanks guys

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07-14-2008 12:45 PM  9 years agoPost 10
Paul-PJH

rrApprentice

The Netherlands

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Hi,

In my Spectra the nut was installed under the engagement key. I thought this was OK, because it bridged the thickness of the base-plate. However the engagement key has only a few threads to hold on. Final result was that these few threads stripped.

Adding 2 washers under the engagement key will provide roughly the same hight as the nut I think, so this solution will not hold to my opinion.

Further I experienced personally, that if you have the base-plate installed the wrong way, it is very hard to install the pull-starter. The red part of the ignition is in the way (as already was mentioned before). You also have to install it turning to the wrong direction. When starting you can pull it loose.

Grtz. Paul

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07-14-2008 03:49 PM  9 years agoPost 11
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I'll explain it again

The NUT is NOT to be used unless you are removing the dogbone entirely and running with electric start from the top.

If you're using the pull starter the dogbone is to be removed, the thick washer that is taped to the instruction sheet is to be used, and the dogbone put back. Only ONE washer is needed, this one supplied, and the dogbone will have enough threads to stay on and not get stripped.

If the starter plate is installed incorrectly as Paul says, you will have issues installing the starter, it will twist on in the wrong direction, and will not stay on when pulling.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4136 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3200 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1430 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 196 flts

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07-14-2008 04:03 PM  9 years agoPost 12
j.8

rrVeteran

Denmark

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Regards Bo

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07-24-2009 01:02 AM  8 years agoPost 13
smallplanes

rrElite Veteran

S.C. ,SSA

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I think if you use the ez pull starter the best thing to do is to make it round like CitationX did as it will be alot more balanced than the one they send you with the kit. The aluminum start system is not round or balanced so you never now where it will tightin up,i think it could and to the vibration of the motor. It is a bad design the way they have it cast it has to be out of balance. I just got thru making my pull system round like Citation did,i have on end made and tomorrow i will flip it over and finish the end that screws up to the flywheel. Citation how long did you make your lthreaded lug from the end to the inside face of the big round end? The way i figure it it should be about .55 thou long and that should give it enuff clearence. I want mine to screw all the way down to the flywheel with out using any washers, i'm going to use a radius mill to make the hub stronger so i don't have the chance of it breaking off. Did you balance the pull system with the two side holes you drilled so it would have as lease vibration as possible? Thanks for posting the picks of yours.

Thanks for the pics


Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
Bat 27cc
Trex 700<br

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07-24-2009 02:05 AM  8 years agoPost 14
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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The threaded portion is .750 in. long. The outside diameter of the threaded portion is .750 in. The outside diameter of the aluminum housing is 2.0 in. with a wall thickness of .010 in. The holes for the spring-loaded paws are the same size and location as the cast version from Hanson. I would suggest making the holes just a bit smaller to reduce the amount of slop.

We also put 2 thru holes 180 apart on the rim of the housing to use for tightening. I simply slip an allen wrench thru them to assist in tightening it to the crank-shaft. No washers are used between the housing and the flywheel. I did not balance it at all. The guy who machined it for me does beautiful work so I didn't see that as a problem. Works great, runs smooth, and I don't mind the fact that I have to leave the pull-start attached all the time.

I have attached a few photos of the housing.

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07-24-2009 05:50 AM  8 years agoPost 15
Trevor G

rrApprentice

Brisbane, Australia

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Very nice work!
I bet he could sell a few of those...I`d take one tomorrow if the price was fair, taking into account it is a one off part. I loved my hanson starter with the recoil spring but my adaptation to the crank didn`t last very long. I don`t have a lathe to make parts.

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07-24-2009 02:43 PM  8 years agoPost 16
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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It was quite easy for him to make. I spoke with Al at BH Hanson and shared with him the design to adapt this particular pull-start to the Spectra-G. He thought it was a good idea especially since there is really no way to use it on the Spectra-G. I suppose if there is enough of a market out there I could look into making these but for now it seems as though most guys get along well with the stock Zenoah pull-start.

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07-24-2009 05:17 PM  8 years agoPost 17
smallplanes

rrElite Veteran

S.C. ,SSA

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Thanks for the pics,i hope to finish mine up today after i get off work. I'm a CNC Machinist so it was not to hard to make it took me a little while to write the program but i'm going to save it. I made mine on a Cnc Mill i hope to post a few pics tonight. I think i'm going to make a plate like you did too i want my pull start to stay on the heli.I'm going to make one extra adapter also just in case i have any problems with the first one. Again thanks for the pics and a very good idea to make it round.

Thanks


Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
Bat 27cc
Trex 700<br

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07-24-2009 06:09 PM  8 years agoPost 18
CitationX

rrApprentice

Danville, IN

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No problem Smallplanes. If you are a machininst you might want to consider making some extra "paws". Those are the spring-loaded black plastic pieces that engage the starter cog. If these should wear out they are not available separately...that I am aware of.

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07-24-2009 09:43 PM  8 years agoPost 19
smallplanes

rrElite Veteran

S.C. ,SSA

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I might make some of those too. I was going to finish my part today but it's storming here and we have to cut off the CNC's during a storm to keep lighting from hitting them. If the storm passes i might go back to the shop and finish it up. How thick is you aluminum plate holding your pull start? I might make some aluminum tail blade grips also. Thanks for the info and pics.

Thanks


Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
Bat 27cc
Trex 700<br

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07-25-2009 01:12 PM  8 years agoPost 20
BrunoBL

rrKey Veteran

Pomerode, SC, Brazil​ -26.71, -49.17

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While I agree that the spring-loaded pull-starter is handy for those who do have issues with the stock Zenoah device, I also think that proper starting technique is really all that is needed (provided, of course, that everything is assembled as per instructions).

My first few days with the pull-starter were worrying. The device popped off every other pull, and I saw the coupling ring erode so fast that I ordered a replacement just in case.

Then Raja showed me the right technique. He suggested pulling the starter rope more aligned with the tail boom, as opposed to out toward me, and that made all the difference in the world. No more popping off, no more chewing on the ring. I even use the same old ring in the starter to this day.

For the record, I do still use the pull-starter permanently attached to the heli. But for entirely different reasons than the old "pop-off" issue. I just want to not worry about carrying around the starter when flying, and having it permanently fixed IMO takes the "self-contained" spirit of a gasser heli one step further, i.e. I don't need batteries, starters, glow heaters and indeed don't even detach the pull-starter to fly. I fully appreciate the weight penalty involved and can live with that.


...Bruno.
Spectra G on Avgas 100LL, Jewel generator
T-Rex450SE V2
DX7

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