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07-11-2008 10:17 PM  9 years agoPost 1
yellowaircraft

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Bodrum, Turkey

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Hi guys, I just heard that it is quite possible to to hands off hover in CCPM helis by positive pitch paddle trick. You give about 10* positive pitch to flybar paddles.

Is this so?

what a man can do, another can do...

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07-11-2008 10:33 PM  9 years agoPost 2
Gregor99

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Western Wa

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I don't know about that. But my new thinking is hands off hover is not the goal of a perfectly setup heli. My revised view of the matter is that in a hover your swash should be perfectly level (90 degrees from the main shaft at all angles). If it drifts forward or backward, that needs to be corrected with a change in CG not an adjustment in the swash, or trim setting.

If it drifts a little to the left, that's normal and needs to be compensated with the right stick. If you adjust it out via the swash links, it the adjustment will be backwards when you go inverted. The perfect setup starts with a level swash and ends with corrections via CG and pilot.

Revolectrix Beta Team

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07-11-2008 10:41 PM  9 years agoPost 3
Burlyman38

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Troy,IL

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That is a very good point greggor. I never thought of it that way.

TripleB

TripleB
Flying by the street light.

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07-11-2008 10:41 PM  9 years agoPost 4
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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That may work on a big heli but the King is just too small and light to counter the force of the tail. I see nothing wrong with an unlevel swash.

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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07-11-2008 10:50 PM  9 years agoPost 5
yellowaircraft

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Bodrum, Turkey

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TJ. Did you answer me in your first sentence or to Gregor?

what a man can do, another can do...

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07-11-2008 10:55 PM  9 years agoPost 6
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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Kinda both.

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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07-11-2008 11:14 PM  9 years agoPost 7
shizack

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Aiken, SC USA

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I've tried the positive pitch trick with the HBFP and the King.

Pros: More lift; stabler hover.
Cons: MUCH more susceptible to acting like a yo-yo in any little breeze; cyclic loses lots of responsiveness.

These effects are much more pronounced with the FP, but they affect the King as well. I really recommend against it with the King, and only for "I just gotta" flying indoors with the FP or when the motor's on the way out and won't lift as well.

And 10º is a bit much. I never went beyond about 5º.

A soul in tension is learning to fly

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07-12-2008 02:10 AM  9 years agoPost 8
Gregor99

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Western Wa

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That may work on a big heli but the King is just too small and light to counter the force of the tail.
Size has nothing to do with it.
I see nothing wrong with an unlevel swash
Breaking this into two parts as there are two primary forces and two typical remedies.

Fore/Aft With our heavy tailed Esky's this is the one we are most familiar with and usually caused by poor CG. Tilting the swash forward will stabilize the heli in steady hover. However to accomplish this, the neutral pitch position of the front of the rotor has more negative pitch that it would be required with a perfect CG. When you pull back on the right stick, the front of the rotor gets some positive pitch but not as much as it would with a perfect CG. The results across then entire rotor there ends up being more net negative pitch than if the CG were perfect. As result when you pull back on the right stick you now have to apply a little collective to compensate. If you go inverted, the heli response to the tilted swash is now reversed so you have to hold the right stick back twice as much to maintain a steady hover. I didn’t make this up, it came from Slider.

Side to Side The second most common swash correction is compensating for the thrust of the tail. If done to perfection the heli will hover hands off (or close to it) with the heli tilted to the right. This looks cool on video and of course is great feeling if all your going to do hover. But since hopefully all of will eventually do more than tail in over, we can quickly outgrow this perceived perfection. The problem with this setting is that is isn’t dynamic. If we could use a static setting to compensate for tail thrust, we could all be using rate gyros, or maybe even no gyro and simply using revo mixing. As the heli moves into forward flight weathervaning reduces the amount required tail thrust. The tilted swash now causes the heli to lean to the right. When you go inverted, the tilted swash is now working opposite of what it does in the upright flight. Instead of adding a little cyclic input to correct now you have to add a lot. Even in basic slow maneuvers I’ve noticed an unpleasant interaction. As I was working on my figure 8s in the garage I notice that when turning left, I had to fight the heli. Turning right it seemed fall into the turn very easily. As I looked closer during the left hand turns, the heli was already leaning to left. I had to first get it back to center then lean it right. In the right and turns, the heli was leaning right already, so very little input was needed. Moving to more level swash made the both turns more equal and the transitions, especially on the left turns feel much more natural.

By trying to perfect the balance of the heli by tilting the swash you are only correcting for one flight condition, steady hover. In other flight conditions, the titled swash causes imbalances approximately twice as bad as the original imbalance leaving the pilot to dynamically compensate for them. I'd rather have my heli balanced for most flight conditions instead of just one. I don't spend at of time hovering these days so I care very little if I need to add a little right stick to hold a position. I spend more time turning left and right, and level swash feels more natural.

Revolectrix Beta Team

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07-12-2008 02:31 AM  9 years agoPost 9
Griffin

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Knoxville TN

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I have to agree with gregor 100%. Nothing is better then a well balanced heli, with a nice level swash.

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07-12-2008 03:25 AM  9 years agoPost 10
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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Buy a bigger heli then

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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07-12-2008 03:35 AM  9 years agoPost 11
toolman18

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Portland Tx

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Fender says go fly

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07-12-2008 03:51 AM  9 years agoPost 12
shizack

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Aiken, SC USA

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Frankie say, "Relax!!"

Worf say, "It is a good day to fly."

Yoda say, "Do. Or do not. There is no try."

UFO Phil say, "Can you keep a secret?"

A soul in tension is learning to fly

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07-12-2008 03:52 AM  9 years agoPost 13
toolman18

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Portland Tx

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07-12-2008 04:44 AM  9 years agoPost 14
zaw

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Lebanon, NH - USA

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I had those WASP V3, FP that came with 10* of pitch out of box. They hover good in nice calm day but when wind pick up its impossible to bring them back down. if you slow the rotor speed it loose the tail, when wind stop they just drop!

ಠ_ಠ HBK2 built with inexpensive parts! ٩๏̯͡๏)۶ Gaui425

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07-12-2008 05:37 AM  9 years agoPost 15
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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I see adding pitch to the paddles like this. It makes them try to run in the cleanest air possible and that forces them to run in a plane parallel to the main blades. Thus keeping the heli from wandering. I assume you can achieve the same thing by adding negative pitch to them.

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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07-12-2008 06:16 AM  9 years agoPost 16
shizack

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Aiken, SC USA

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Did that too, on the FP. As expected, completely opposite results. Less lift requiring more headspeed to lift off; slightly more tolerant of wind; just a smidge more responsive to the cyclic stick. Tended to wader a bit more.

The best results were obtained with leveling the paddles with the paddle control frame. 0º paddle pitch. Of course.

A soul in tension is learning to fly

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07-12-2008 06:23 AM  9 years agoPost 17
TJinGuy

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Socorro, NM - USA

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Actually thinking more about it, I bet you are right. If the main blades are pushing air down and the paddles are trying to push air up, they will loose the battle and will probably be very easy to move in the turbulence created.

Well I am off to bed.

- Chris

Team New Mexico
TJinTech

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