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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Anyone got a Vario EC135???
07-11-2008 04:06 PM  9 years agoPost 21
Adam Tashjian

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Boylston, MA (the​pay state)

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Vario fenestron

There is nothing wrong with the vario fenestron. All you have to do is buy the speed up gear set from east coast scale helicopters and u will be fine. As for flying the ec is a great machine, I use the heli tronox mixer and with a little set up it will fly like a two blade machine. The advantage to this mixer is you can Ise what ever gryo you prefer. 401 futabas and CSM 180 gyros work well. hope this helps -Adam

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07-11-2008 04:12 PM  9 years agoPost 22
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Vario fenestrom

Adam, Correct no problems at all with a Vario fenestrom, as long as it is on a gasser or glow
Try it with a turbine EC135, and then you will know
Sparkhead, was looking to buy a turbine powered EC135
Peter R

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07-12-2008 03:18 PM  9 years agoPost 23
dazzaster

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right next door to​hell

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forgive me if this sounds like a silly question but why would the feneston not work on the turbine version? if the blade sizes are the same then shouldnt the head speed be the same and the tail speed be geared the same? or is the tail geared to a diffrent speed on the turbine? if so if you change the tail speed and head speed to that of the gasser version then it should handle the same as its only the power plant thats changed?

A.K.A 509

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07-12-2008 03:20 PM  9 years agoPost 24
MattJen

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UK

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There is nothing wrong with the vario fenestron. All you have to do is buy the speed up gear set from east coast scale helicopters and u will be fine.

So even on the gasser version, by your comments you are saying to get it to work properly you need to buy the speed up gears...

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 03:22 PM  9 years agoPost 25
MattJen

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UK

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if so if you change the tail speed and head speed to that of the gasser version then it should handle the same as its only the power plant thats changed

the turbine has a hell of alot more torq Darren...

and the tail cannot cope with it... without modification

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 03:41 PM  9 years agoPost 26
dazzaster

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right next door to​hell

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matt the turbine does produce more torque however once the head is up to speed both engines only need to keep that speed there, and torque will only really come into play when you apply pitch and because of the energy the turbine has, it is more likely to hold the head speed at a constant without the vibration and kick you get from a gasser.
the only way that torque would affect it that much is if the turbine version was a lot heavier as you would then need more pitch to lift it and more pitch would cause more torque and cause the tail to require more pitch to hold it steady.
Darren

A.K.A 509

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07-12-2008 03:47 PM  9 years agoPost 27
MattJen

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UK

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THE TURBINE IS HEAVIER

i am not gonna debate it, it just does not work, with out some kind of mod being done to the tail...

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t319653p1/

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...VARIO+FENESTRON

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...VARIO+FENESTRON

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...VARIO+FENESTRON

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...VARIO+FENESTRON

The first few PHT3's was goverened to 84000 rpm and had a different gear train to the more modern ones with the 9mm belt, this might have a different torque output, and there, might lie the answer to the problem of the Fenestrom
Above is a load of thread where everyone who has had this machine has some kind of problem with the tail, wether it be the push rod flexing, the bell crank flexing, the tail creating too much back wash, it seems it is ok with the gasser, but as soon as you add the turbine which is a lot heavier you run into problems..

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 03:55 PM  9 years agoPost 28
MattJen

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UK

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the only way that torque would affect it that much is if the turbine version was a lot heavier as you would then need more pitch to lift it and more pitch would cause more torque and cause the tail to require more pitch to hold it steady.
Darren

The weight of the gasser is 9.2 kilo, the weight of the turbine is 12.9 kilo add to that you are carrying extra fuel as well ( 2.5 litres) so the weight of the turbine on start up is around 13.5/14kilo almost 50% heavier than the gasser.

so as you have said, and answerd, that is the reason why the turbine one struggles... but it is hit and miss, Dave hollins one flew, Peter wales one flew but he built another one in the States and he had horrendous problems, mine was an unfinished project when i bought it, and it was a pig to fly, ecabanas had the same problem,
Darrens has also had similar issues with tail problems,

Most have dumped the vario fenestron and have gone with the cini scale one...

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 03:55 PM  9 years agoPost 29
dazzaster

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right next door to​hell

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matt the question i am asking is that the gasser version uses speed up gears! does the turbine version use these speed up gears or does it already run at the same tail speed and therefore does not require the same speed up gears.
if it is neither of these then perhaps speeding the tail up to the same speed as the gassers tail will solve the problem
additonal info

the weight of the gasser is 9.2 kilo, the weight of the turbine is 12.9 kilo add to that you are carrying extra fuel as well ( 2.5 litres) so the weight of the turbine on start up is around 13.5/14kilo almost 50% heavier than the gasser.
this extra weight would definetly cause a lot of torque as the extra pitch would be required to lift the machine and with that amount of extra torque the machine would certinanly need the tail to spin faster than the gasser version , and with it spinning fater there would be more presure put on the bell crank and pushrods to the fenston and they would certinanly need beefing up.

A.K.A 509

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07-12-2008 04:02 PM  9 years agoPost 30
MattJen

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UK

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Vario DO NOT RECOMMEND spinning the fenestron any higher than 9000 RPM, we took it to over 11000rpm using a 13kilo servo, still no effect, PeterRob and Peter Wales took it to over 14000rpm and it still had no effect the flexing and the back thrust created was too severe for the sevo to work effectively this was using a 25 kilo servo.
Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 04:03 PM  9 years agoPost 31
dazzaster

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right next door to​hell

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i can see why the vog ones would work better than the vario ones. the vog blades are better curved and are carbon fibre makeing them a lot more riggid than the vario ones. it could be the vario blades flex more and there for loose there eficenecy

A.K.A 509

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07-12-2008 04:11 PM  9 years agoPost 32
MattJen

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UK

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My fenestron i upgraded the blades to the carbon ones, over the bog standard plastic ones...

I still could not get it to work, maybe now with a bit more experience i would have persevered... cos it is an awsome machine to fly.. i only managed to get it to tail in hover for 4 secs before the nose spun round on me...

The Cini which i assume is the VOG one you are refering to has thrust races, the Vario one doesnt, we found the blades did lock up under load, but they work on the gasser...

It was also annoying cos the Gasser version of the Dauphin had a set of speed up gears, even though it was the same fenestron, but on the EC135 it does not and it not recommended to go above 9000RPM...
this applies to both the gasser and Turbine, the Gasser EC135 does not come with speed up gears, as does the turbine version,

The gasser one works fine, the turbine one doesn't on some models and is hit and miss..

Interesting thread...

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 08:39 PM  9 years agoPost 33
Adam Tashjian

rrApprentice

Boylston, MA (the​pay state)

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Fenestron

I know we are beating this to death, but no matter which way we look at this the fenestron is just the set of blades, and in both cases Vario and VOG you have to use the Vario tail gearbox. I don’t know if you need speed gears for the VOG but I would assume they are necessary, because again they are just a set of blades and nothing more. It’s the gearbox that produces the power needed to control the tail. All I can see different is that the VOG fenestron has thinner blades, thus allowing them to put more blades around the hub. And as far as pricing goes, when you buy a Vario you get the fenestron and the tail gearbox. For a little more you can buy the VOG fenestron, no gearbox, and that’s it. Speed up gears are not that much more. I think the better value goes with the Vario fenestron. - Adam

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07-12-2008 09:03 PM  9 years agoPost 34
MattJen

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UK

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interesting point,

it must be just the way the drive goes from the gear box to the blades,in this video i had full right rudder on and the nose still went to the left ( i changed rotation over)

i know with mine all it did was flex and it would not hold

here is 2 videos with scale master Dennis Stretton trying to help me

Matt

Watch at YouTube

All The Best

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07-12-2008 10:59 PM  9 years agoPost 35
tris_heli

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Lidlington,​Bedfordshire, UK

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Matt,
The Cini which i assume is the VOG one you are refering to has thrust races, the Vario one doesnt, we found the blades did lock up under load, but they work on the gasser...
For info, the Cine-Scale fenstron does not have any thrust races.

Also, robbe also do the gears to allow you to get the 1 to 1.1 up speed ratio in the tail gearbox (this is the route i went down with success).

In our experience to date, the point of weakness that we found was the push rod which goes through the gear box to actuate the pitch on the blades. It exactly mimicked what you described happening with yours, ie full right and it still goes left.

Having just looked over your video, it was EXACTLY the same issue that we were seeing. We even took half of the blades out of the fenstron to reduce the load and repeated the test (keeping the heli on the ground) with the same results.

The key for us was changing the tail bell crank so the pitch "force" is applied either side of the push rod, rather than pulling it of center causing it to lock up within the tail output shaft.

Once this had been done it worked like a charm

Cheers
Tris

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07-12-2008 11:02 PM  9 years agoPost 36
Adam Tashjian

rrApprentice

Boylston, MA (the​pay state)

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fenestron problem

remember you have to have a strong servo over 100 oz holding torque otherwise the gyro will not work properly. I use a standard 9206 futaba and it works very well. also I use a 401 gyro in peizo mode not heading hold. I suppose u can use heading hold however u cannot use a revo mix. Hope that helps- Adam

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07-12-2008 11:19 PM  9 years agoPost 37
MattJen

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UK

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that was a 9206 servo on mine, and it was in normal, you are correct you can use HH but you must not have revo on or it messes up the gyro.

PeterRob upgraded it to a 25kilo torq servo..

It is good we all had the same probs and good to see tris you think you have cured it...

i would not break open the champaign unitl you have managed to do fast circuits both left and right against the wind..

It would be great to think the fenestron has been finally cured.
great work guys

Matt

edit - i have enclosed 2 photo of 2 different fenestrons, i tried both of them on my machine, the open one looks as if had got thrust races or it may be an extra shim/bearing.

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07-12-2008 11:38 PM  9 years agoPost 38
MattJen

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UK

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The key for us was changing the tail bell crank so the pitch "force" is applied either side of the push rod, rather than pulling it of center causing it to lock up within the tail output shaft.

as said great work guys, these are one of the best scale machines, hard to fly so require skill, i like that challenge...

Matt

All The Best

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07-12-2008 11:58 PM  9 years agoPost 39
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Matt, those are thrust races on the end of each blade
Tris, I do not think changing the pitch slider, has cured the fenestrom authority problem, just made it easier to work
I spent a year on Matts EC135 to finaly get it to fly easily in either direction, the answer for me was to leave the 22 tooth speed up gear in the Vario gearbox and fit the Cine-scale fenestrom, moving the servo to within the fenestrom tunel was so I could see all the working parts at the same time
Like Matt, I will be interested, to see how it fly's, when it comes back from the Painter, when all the scale bits and pieces are added,
with my first EC135 built from Vario no upgrades I flew it in primer for nearly a year with just enough tail authority to turn left in any conditions, the problems with this machine started when I painted it in 2 pack clear over base colour, and fitted all the little extras, (a lot more weight to carry and needing more torque) even with a very expensive helical gear upgrade (my own design) it did not work well
Peter R

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07-13-2008 12:11 AM  9 years agoPost 40
Peter Wales

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Orlando Fl

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I built 2 EC135 turbines, the first one in England. It has a 601 gyro and a wimpy 9251 servo in HH mode working the stock Vario fenestron. It flew beautifully. I even flew it in 20+ mph winds to annoy Dave Hollins who was a little wary of his 135.

I liked it so much, I built another identical one in the US. What a pig! I ended up going with a 10kg servo and a 401 on it, still in HH mode and I also used Robbe speed up gears. It flew nicely then and has had lots of flights in the US.

It made me decide to do some work on these fenestrons and any others which were available. My conclusion was that there are better ones available out there, and you will pay the price for them. The stock one does work, but you can buy an upgrade which works better like you can for many parts of a model helicopter, but you pay extra for it.

I am happy to believe that there are rogue ones out there like the one Matt had, but I would take a large bet that there are a heck of a lot more stock ones working perfectly satisfactorily, which of course, you never hear about.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

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