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Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
03-11-2003 03:57 PM  14 years agoPost 1
LiftrrElite Veteran - Houston, TX - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

All,
A few guys have sent me e-mails about my tail modification to the SE and Raven 50 series that use the triple bearing tail grips. So, I though I would post some pics here so you all could see. Let me add that this may not be suitable for some of you. I did this to get the tail pitch I wanted without any possible binding in-flight. . I was having trouble getting the tail to come around when in motion on my kit and this solved(ie. tail slide or backwards flight piros around to forward or vice versa)it.

My kit was purchased last May and did not come with the new parts that have improved tail rotor pitch throw substantially. So, if your tail rotor performs to your liking the LEAVE IT ALONE. But, if you want to find out if your tail has enough throw setup to perform like mine then you can simply attempt a piro in FF. If it stalls then you will know what I am talking about. If you do this, you do so at your own risk and don't hold me accountable if you dork it up!

The mod uses a Raptor 60 CNC tail pitch fork & pins w/c-clips to hold on the stock Century fork links. I got mine from www.GR8LakesRC.com.

The double balls shown are MA 0113 screwed into the LEFT hold on the two-hole tail grips. The grips have been replaced with the triple hole grips on all new Century SE & Raven kits. So, you might try the MA 0113-1 double balls for those grips because of the 2mm thread size.

The only thing I did was to file down the brass slider that holds the pitch fork assembly together so that it was as flush as possible on the fork end and just enough on the other end so that I could disassemble it if need. This was done to get as much pitch slider range as possible.

To see that it won't bind on the bellcrank(note: this an old picture when I was using the R60 tail grips. I am now using the Century triple-bearing grips). Notice that the pitch fork cannot hit the bellcrank.


Be sure to visit my Gallery! I have added some pics for your viewing.....

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03-11-2003 07:59 PM  14 years agoPost 2
Indrid

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Hamburg, NY

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cool... i might try this.. thanks for the pics!

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03-11-2003 10:20 PM  14 years agoPost 3
Lift

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Houston, TX

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Stephen,
You know, I just typed up a long reply to your post but deleted it. Personally, I'm getting sick of the persistent negative attitude about the Century product. Why bother posting the same old attitude? It's getting old.

Do us all a favor and quit downgrading my effort here to share a TRUE improvment to the Century 50 size tail performance. This thread is not for you since you have abandoned hope for your Falcon and relegated it to a dust collector.

Your comments ALWAYS end up in "the TT products suit our flying style....". Well that's great! And the Century product will do the same for others.

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03-11-2003 10:30 PM  14 years agoPost 4
Indrid

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Hamburg, NY

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i really dont find that much of a problem with my stock pitch slider... it isnt perfect but it isnt horrible either. i can get 4 piros a second on average, thats more than enough for me.

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03-11-2003 10:41 PM  14 years agoPost 5
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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Indrid,
The reason I did this was to increase the piro ability IN MOTION. There is no windspeed to overcome when your are in a hover and simply jam the rudder to full. That's not what were talking about here and I have a feeling that is what your referring to.

Try a 720 stalls turn on the way up at good rate of speed.

Or, go into FFF and try to piro the tail around.

Also, does the Raven 30 come with the triple bearing tail system?

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03-11-2003 10:54 PM  14 years agoPost 6
Indrid

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Hamburg, NY

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yessir it does....

ill try it, of course i am always looking for shiny upgrades so i will eventually mod the tail.

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03-13-2003 01:51 AM  14 years agoPost 7
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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Stephen,
I humbly appologize after re-reading your post in light of what you are saying. I took it as a "tongue in cheek" type response to the Falcon & Raven overall. Sometimes I gather that you think the Falcon and Raven suck for advanced flying. I guess it is a bad perception on my part and again I applologize.

I do remember you mentioning shortening the brass slider now that you reposted that. Believe it or not when I converted back to using the triple bearing grips I stumbled onto shortening the slider by trial and error. Wish I would have remembered your post because it would have saved me alot of time!!!

I will add though that I think the problem is still pitch. The gear ratio is plenty fast. The boom is fine with some CF boom supports and a CNC boom clamp from QWW for a Kalt boom. This REALLY stiffens up the tail! If you run a strong headspeed and modify the pitch slider with a forward swept pitch fork you can get a much improved feel.

I still would like to see the tail case remolded to allow a higher throw bell crank and longer tail rotor shaft. That would about do it!

Anyhow, again let me eat some humble pie and offer my sincerest appologies. You have been more than helpful to me in the past and I hope my little flare up wasn't the end of it. Sorry....

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03-15-2003 12:13 PM  14 years agoPost 8
Phil_Mart

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Newcastle UK

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Hawk Sport tail mod

Am I missing something here?

I got the bits, Raptor ally tail pitch fork and slider assembly. I reduced the length of the brass ferule by removing the flats section of it and then assembled the unit. When it came to fitting it onto the shaft I noticed that the ends of the forks were well clear of the bell crank mounting. However, once I refitted the tail hub and blades it was obvious that the amount of available Right pitch was dramatically reduced whilst the Left hand pitch was increased.

So to resolve this I can either machine off some of the base of the ally forks or use a longer output shaft to recover the left pitch.

Any thoughts appreciated

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03-15-2003 02:58 PM  14 years agoPost 9
Lift

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Houston, TX

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Phil,
You must use a long ball on the grip so it reaches the pitch fork. But, if your tail pitch is not more symetrical in throw then move the ball to a different hole in the grips. I THINK mine is on the LEFT hole on both grips as viewed from the tail case of the heli.

My throw is symetrical and effective.

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03-15-2003 04:59 PM  14 years agoPost 10
Phil_Mart

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Newcastle UK

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Ahh I'm stuffed here folks only I've got anodized ally blade grips on the back end. Looks like its chopping the fork time

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03-15-2003 11:04 PM  14 years agoPost 11
Phil_Mart

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Newcastle UK

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Thank you very much, thats an excellent bit of diagram-ing

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03-15-2003 11:07 PM  14 years agoPost 12
Gearhead

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Vt

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man,,, I don't know why you guys even think you need to modify the Falcon's tail, and yes I have read all those old posts,,, my Falcons tail is completely stock, and when I hit the Dual Rate switch my Piros are scary fast !!,,, (yes with a 401),,, in both switch positions my Dual Rates are set at 100%, and in both switch positions my ATVs are set at 100%,,, but my Expos are different,,, so for hovering and flying around slow I have a slow and smooth Piros, but when I hit that Rate switch my Piros are so fast people just stop and look, one guy asked me if there was something wrong with my heli,,, in both switch positions just set your Dual Rates and ATVs at 100%, and turn up or down your EXPO to get the Pros Rate you want, that's all there is to it !!


Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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03-15-2003 11:25 PM  14 years agoPost 13
Phil_Mart

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Newcastle UK

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To Modify or Not?

Why modify?

Ok I'll give you two reasons:

1) So that (as far as I'm concerned) it looks better.
2) So that no matter what, the dam pitch fork don't catch the bell crank mounting.

Now I'll agree that 2) is a debatable point, but 1) isn't. 1) is a matter of fact and personnel taste. Simple really

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03-16-2003 06:03 AM  14 years agoPost 14
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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I just ues a small spacer to keep my pitch fork from catching on the bell crank !!


Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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03-16-2003 08:41 AM  14 years agoPost 15
Phil_Mart

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Newcastle UK

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Ahhha!! so you HAVE modified your tail

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03-16-2003 05:48 PM  14 years agoPost 16
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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Jim,
I would like to know how you can adjust your Expo on the rudder channel and increase the piroette. All Expo does is flatten/raise the output to the servo around center stick. IOW, it either increases or decreases the sensitivity around center.

What Alexander and I are talking about is increasing the blade pitch so that the tail has enough authority to piroette the machine while in fast motion(be it forward/backward/sideways). Now, what I suspect on you setup is that you have all the pitch on your heli set in one direction and that is the direction you are experiencing fast piroettes. Is your piroette rate the same in both directions? Have you tried a piroette in FFF in both directions and does the machine keep going around?

I don't use Dual Rates on a helicopter. Everything is for full throw and I use Expo to settle it down if needed. Dual Rates are more suited for airplane use.

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03-16-2003 07:07 PM  14 years agoPost 17
Indrid

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Hamburg, NY

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i did notice it is slower piroing in one direction compared to the other...but ATM it is fast enough for me, i will mod it for "wicked sick piros" once i get the free time and money

anyone willing to donate to my predator SE fund???

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03-16-2003 10:41 PM  14 years agoPost 18
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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Payton,,, you said you don't use dual rates, I'm just wondering what do you have them set at ? if your not using your dual rates then they need to be set at the same percentage as your ATVs !

__________________________________________________
Now, what I suspect on you setup is that you have all the pitch on your heli set in one direction
__________________________________________________
No,,, in both positions of my rudders dual rate switch I set the high and low (+ & -) at 100%, my ATVs high & low are set the same (100%), the only difference when I hit my rudders dual rate switch is the Expo !!,,, BUT, as "Indrid" I do have a slightly faster piro rate with the stick pulled left, but that's normal do to the torque of the main blades, with a little ATV and dual rate tuning I will be able to get my piros the same speed left or right !! my radio is an 8103,,,

as long as I have my dual rate switch is in position 1 (pointing at me) I have all the tail power I need to do fast piros in FFF !!

all my dual rates are set the same as my ATVs, even on my cyclic, so if I hit the Aileron or Elevator dual rate switch all I change is their Expo, this way I still have full swash plate deflection !!,,,
dual rates are just another ATV !!, I don't suggest using them on a heli, because if your using your dual rate, at say 70% of your ATV and your in a predicament and you quickly need more servo travel to save your bird you will then need to hit the dual rate switch to get more servo travel,,, now, if you dual rates are set the same as your ATV but your Expo is slower you will still have full servo travel and full movement of your cyclic..

this may all be worng for the next guy, but I like my set up !!

Jim

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz

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03-17-2003 03:43 PM  14 years agoPost 19
Lift

rrElite Veteran

Houston, TX

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Jim,
My DRs all set at default which is 100%. I do have some expo on DR1 for Elev, Ail, Rud but I never switch out of that rate. My ATV on the rudder channel is around 130 or so, I can't remember.

I have never played with DR when tuning the tail piro rate. That is always done with the ATVs as per the Futaba 401 manual.

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03-17-2003 04:57 PM  14 years agoPost 20
oldfart

rrProfessor

Vancouver, Canada

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Tail rotor

Payton & Alexander,

Have you fellows had a chance to use the latest tail rotor blade grips and pitch slider that has been stock in the raven and SE kits for the past 5 months or so? They adress all of these issues.

Phil

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