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HelicopterOff Topics › Question about pilots License
03-12-2003 10:28 PM  14 years agoPost 21
Maxx

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Shreveport Louisana

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Nitro, the FAA has a NPRM in the works in association with the EAA called Sport Pilot...here is a link:

http://www.sportpilot.org/

Basically it's a private pilots licence witth restrictions on what aircraft you can fly and where you can fly it. It's aimed at people who want to learn to fly for recreation and be allowed to carry a passenger at the same time. Several kit and lightplane manufactures are gearing up with some pretty nice aircraft that cost in the range of $12,000-$20,000.00 (the Ran's S-10 Sakota with the 100HP Rotax is my current fave!) and fly on Preimum Unleaded. You can upgrade to a private ticket at a later date if you feel the need or desire too! Just another option you might consider!

Chris (if it's worth doing...it's worth doing inverted!)

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03-13-2003 04:46 AM  14 years agoPost 22
driftrider

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Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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Wes' facts not straight...

I'm going to dispute what you're saying because it appears your facts aren't straight. You say...
And just for some adivce the price of fuel has almost nothing to do with cost of aircraft, fuel is about $3.00 a gallon and highest and you burn only another 5or 6 bucks an hour. But the greatest raise in price between old and new aircraft are the cost of engine maintance, for an average airplane an engine overhaul is about 15,000-20,000.
Ok, what type of airplane are you flying? The $3 a gallon part is probably accurate. At the FBO at IOW, 100LL runs $2.80/gal full serve (from the truck), and $2.40/gal self serve. But I'm hoisting the BS flag on the "5or 6 bucks an hour" part. I know for a fact that a C-150, with its 100 or 110hp engine, burns AT A MINIMUM four (4) gallons per hours if you don't run it too hard. Realistically, at normal cruise (which for the 150 is usually leaned at 85%-100% power, you're looking at closer to 5-6 gallons per hour. 6gph is the figure we use for XC flight planning. For a Piper PA28-161 Warrior, with a new Millenium 161hp engine, we use 9-10gph for XC planning, and it realistically burns 8-9 at a typical cruise setting (75% power). That means that, at BEST, the C-150 is burning $11.20 (my FBO's full serve rate) per hour, and the Warrior burns $22.40/hr. The C-150's rent (wet rate) for $45/hr, and the Warrior rents for $79/hr, so the percentage of fuel costs are roughly 25% and 28% respectively, which is a decent portion of the cost.

You also said:
But the greatest raise in price between old and new aircraft are the cost of engine maintance, for an average airplane an engine overhaul is about 15,000-20,000.
With this you are actually right and wrong. You are correct to say that the relative cost of overhaul usually increases once an airplane is so old. Mostly this is an issue with parts availability, which is once reason that older engines are likely to be completely replaced rather than overhauled (like the Millenium engine in our Warrior). But in most cases, the cost of major overhauls and annual and 100hr inspections are conservatively estimated based on the average cost of overhauling that particular type of airplane/engine. For the sake of this argument we'll say a major overhaul is estimated to cost $25,000 with a nice cushion for unforseen costs. We'll also say that the annual inspection itself will take 20 labor hours at a shop rate of $75/hr ($1,500), doubled for the cost of any replacement parts or repairs for a total of $3,000. We'll also say that the 100 hour inspection takes 5 hours, or $375, doubled to $750 for parts/repair. After figuring these costs, the FBO will divide them by the required time interval, to reach an hourly figure. So, for the MOH it's usually 2000 hours so the cost would be $12.50/hour. The 100hr inspection would cost $7.50/hr. And the annual would be calculated based on the average hours per year (if known), or a projected number. We'll say, for this argument, that as a trainer our hypothetical airplane gets flown an average of 30 hours per week, or 1560 hours/year, making the cost $1.90/hr. Totalling up the costs we reach a total of $21.90/hr for standard maintence (not including oil changes). If our hypothetical airplane were the Warrior I'm flying, then the cost of fuel exceeds the cost of overhauls and inspections. The problem is that overhaul/inspection costs/hr can vary greatly. In the above example I assumed that the airplane costs began at 0 SMOH, the day it got it's annual done. If the airplane is a recent purchase by the FBO, it might have a varying number of hours until it needs an overhaul, or it might be a month from its annual, etc...which all will significantly raise the hourly cost of operation.
And also because maintance is done doesn't mean that its done right, my best advice which was what I did was get a friend (who is a pilot) to go and get checked out in the plane you plan to fly and have him/her take a really good look at it, there are things you may not know about or see they probally will.
It had better be, or the A&P who does it is in a world of crap, but you're correct to say that there may be some Part 92 schools that let their maintenence slid a little bit, but not many who want to stay in business long. The FAA is pretty strict on maintence for aircraft that are used for flight training. The best thing to do is simply check the airworthyness certificate and the airplanes maintenence logs (which are required)and talk to the A&P responsible for that airplane. These will tell you what what done to the plane and when. As to whether the logged maintenence was done correctly...well since the license (and money and freedom) of the A&P depends on it, and the fact that I've never met an A&P who didn't hold him/herself to the highest standards, I'd trust that the job was done right. All of the mechanics who work for our FBO are either pilots themselves and test fly the airplanes after they work on them, or they go up with one of our CFI's (usually the manager and chief instructor).

If you can't bring yourself to trust the professionals that work on these planes, then you must be kind-of paranoid and probably shouldn't be in that cockpit in the first place). YOU are far more likely to be the cause of a crash than THEY are, and sometimes s**t just happens that kills the best pilots in the world. If you can't come to grips with the fact that, despite your best efforts, that airplane might someday kill you, then you should take up knitting, not flying.

Mike

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03-13-2003 02:23 PM  14 years agoPost 23
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Right on Driftrider/Mike, you are the man. No way I could have said it better or more accurately. I still say the reason for the particular rental cost of an aircraft has more to do with how new, and therefore how desirable potential renters may perceive it, the amount of tricked out avionics on board, and how fast the darn thing is. These all also add to the other variables such as increased fuel consumption (you only burn 6 gal/hr at 95 knots, but a 170 cruise is going to drink it up), and the cost to maintain and overhaul all those do-hickeys is also a bit more, as it the additional acquisition and maintenance costs for the larger, and likely more complex engine. Also, one of the costs left out so far seems to be storage. Has anyone seen how much hanger space costs?

Anyways, I’ve been enjoying this discussion, “a good pilot is always learning”.

Also, I have been looking at aircraft ownership. Unfortunately, I can’t afford a certified aircraft and particularly the expenses so well detailed by the Driftrider. So I have been considering the alternatives:

1) Used – hey, you can get an older freshly annualled 3,000 hr Cessna 152 for about $25k. Unfortunately, there is tremendous opportunity for replacement of worn components as many are well into their lifecycle. Additionally, you still have to pay an A&P to do all the work, as well spring for those Certified and TSO’d component parts.
2) Ultralight/Heavy Ultralight – By far the cheapest route. You can get yourself a kit and engine with the bare minimum of instruments/radios, etc. for under $20k brand new. It would be really fun to build, wouldn’t take terribly long and would be an absolutely fabulous and relatively painless learning experience. Registered as Experimental, you could be responsible for your own maintenance. If the aircraft were within the FAA Part 103 requirements, you don’t even need a PPL. On the down side, performance and comfort level is pretty low, generally. Also, the impression given by one of these extremely lightweight aircraft to your potential passengers is not going to instill great gobs of confidence, even if you feel safe as kittens in it.
3) The Kit Plane route – Literally hundreds of kits are available, for any taste and pocketbook. From fast cross-country cruisers to SIX seat dual engine to bush planes there is something for everyone. The kits can be made out of fiberglass, tube and fabric, wood or aluminum, but likely some combination of all of the above. These would be Experimental aircraft and because YOU are the manufacturer, you are eligible to receive authorization to be the “A&P” for that particular aircraft.

There are many types available on the internet. Just do a search of “Kit Planes” “Experimental Aircraft” or something else similar. Or go check out Zenith Aircraft (My current favorites are the all aluminum CH 601XL and the STOL CH 701.), Skystar, Murphy, Quad City Ultralights, RANS, and lots more.

Ideally, I would like to build a 2 seater, to keep costs down, that has reasonable cross country performance, as well as reasonable short/rough field capabilities (as a safety measure). All metal, for durability, the perception that it is a “real plane” for those doubting passengers and the ability to store outdoors, folding wings would be nice for winter indoor storage or trailering, adequate useful load (two passengers plus 1-200lbs of baggage). I don’t mind the build time for something like this, as it is something I just know I would enjoy as much as actually flying the thing. However, despite the upside, money and convincing the wife are my major holdups.

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03-13-2003 07:55 PM  14 years agoPost 24
SUGGSMK69

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East Ridge, TN

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PILOT'S LICENSE

IF YOU WANT TO FLY, GO FOR IT. I EARNED MY PPL AT 45 HOURS TOTAL TIME AND IT WAS THE BEST $2500-2700.00 I EVER SPENT. I HAD CAREER AMBITIONS AT THE TIME. I THINK MY TOTAL MONEY SPENT ON PPL, INSTRUMENT RATING, MULTI-ENGINE RATING AND COMERCIAL PILOT CERTIFICATE WAS AROUND $25,000.00. I HAVE NOT FLOWN IN ABOUT 4 YEARS AND DON'T ANTICIPATE FLYING AGAIN. I WOULD GO FOR MY PRIVATE PILOT CERTIFICATE AGAIN BUT NOT THE REST. GOOD LUCK.

GALATIANS 2:20

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03-13-2003 08:44 PM  14 years agoPost 25
7lbs

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Atlanta

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03-14-2003 08:51 AM  14 years agoPost 26
Jagboy69

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Miami

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here is a cheapo start for those wanna bee pilots out there... Get yourself the basics...old school whiz wheel flight computer (6 bucks) Gleims book for the PPL (18 bucks) plastic sportys plotter (6 bucks) and a 3 month ground school subscription from Flight Prep and complete the ground school... (59 bucks) You wont even have a hundred bucks into it and you will know in the first 2 weeks if this is for you.. The school will send you a certificate when your done.. Then you can take the written and then the rest is all fun...... Flying and a checkride... If you can understand RC helis.. this stuff will be a walk in the park..
good luck.. J

Jason /// Sceadu50/9chp WWW.Jagboy69.com

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03-14-2003 10:46 AM  14 years agoPost 27
Jim C

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PA

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my dream... piper cub. low level thru the desert.. stop at one of the fly in diners they have out there for lunch. gas up and low it back home.. ahhhhh a guy can dream................ and later on maybe pack up the wife and fly to boston for some clam chowda !!! in the moony of course!!!
someday.............................................someday....

jim

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03-14-2003 02:56 PM  14 years agoPost 28
NitroSpazzz

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Knoxville, TN

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Wow what a topic this has become Maxx thanx for the link and the info. I have to set some time aside and read all thsi stuff over a few times and check out all the links. Thanks again

Blake

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03-15-2003 04:02 AM  14 years agoPost 29
choppernut26

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cape coral fl.

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what no reply from seneca he flys all over in twins and jets he would know this for the most part at least in florida !

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