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HelicopterOff Topics › Question about pilots License
03-10-2003 08:46 PM  14 years agoPost 1
NitroSpazzz

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Knoxville, TN

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HeyI was planning on traveling to Europe this summer but it seems like that might be a bad idea. So I was thinking of taking the money saved for Europe and putting it towards a pilot's license. I have always wanted to get it but have never had the funds. I would like feedback on cost and time it takes. Thanks for the info ahead of time

Blake

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03-10-2003 09:44 PM  14 years agoPost 2
Doug

rrElite Veteran

Port Saint Luice Florida....

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Very good experence but unless you can keep it up is quite usless. I havent flown in 12 years.

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

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03-10-2003 10:04 PM  14 years agoPost 3
furyextreme

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USA

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if you are reffering to a rotorcraft license, be prepared to spend at least $15000 at the minimum. Also do not believe when they tell you a price of $10000 to $12000 for your private. That price is based on the minimum requirements the faa has set to 40 hrs and it takes the average person around 60hrs to get a private.
Good Luck

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03-10-2003 10:21 PM  14 years agoPost 4
NitroSpazzz

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Knoxville, TN

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Thanks for the info. My dad got his when I was about 5 but hasn't flown in a while so he wants to renew his and get mine so we can go flying. I think I will look into it. Thanks again

Blake

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03-10-2003 10:41 PM  14 years agoPost 5
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Almost done with mine

$10k seems a bit much.

Even at $85/hr (with instructor) and 60 hrs (which is really about right - not the 40 that is the bare minimum), you are looking at $5,100.

These are the prices I am paying BEFORE discounting for buying in 10 hour blocks (works out to $75/hr with instructor). It is cheaper still when you are on your solos. These are prices from Nov 2002 - I have not flown since to finish my rating but will start again in spring (at least warmer weather).

These are prices for a Cessna 152. It was the absolute cheapest option. I will check out in the more expensive planes later for more flexibility. N48898 isn't new or pretty, but it flies and the motor runs till you shut it off. (check my web site for a pic). This includes fuel.

I also have approx $150 in books, another $6-800 in headsets, flight bags, portable intercom, etc. ($$ mostly on the headsets).

I am almost finished, have only to practice for and take the Practical (flight test). I am at just over 50 hours.

I did not take the classroom study for the written tests which costs extra. You do NOT have to take the classroom. Some schools you do if it is a Part 141 (I think this is the part of the FAA rules) in which the training is more structured and classroom is required. Advantage to these is I guess you get done quicker. The type school I am taking is totally open ended, I schedule when I want, go fly, study on my own, take the test when my instructor endorses me.

So far, I love it. One one of the coolest things I have ever done. I am looking forward to doing some touring, one day hops that would be impossible with a car, etc.

Again, its not cheap, and will likely involve a change in my lifestyle and attitude about travelling and it will hopefully open up new opportunities and options. I suppose I will go for my Instrument rating eventually, but I want to see how things go first. I feel extremely fortunate to have the opportunity to do this.

Check around at every airport in your area. Ask them the rates, keep looking. The one I ended up with (5K Flights based at Cleveland Hopkins - Class B airport) was cheapeand between my work and home, but the planes were not as well equipped and I liked the sort of laid back old-timey atmosphere (the place is kind of a dump). This is NOT your Cessna Flight School with brand new aircraft fully tricked out with equipment. However, they do keep the equipment in full working order so I am not concerned about that.

I am doing it because I have always wanted to. If you are doing it as a carreer... expect to spend a whole lotta money.

Good luck,

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03-10-2003 10:47 PM  14 years agoPost 6
Wes

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Jonesboro, AR

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CA

I don't know what your talkign about, if you are renting a plane for 850 with instructor it must be a beater, the plane I fly is 100 an hour and 40 an hour for the instructor, thats the going rate n CA, the plane I fly is a 172sp 2000 (and godly avionics) I'm working on my insturment and wanted the good avionics for it but the cheapest I would rent a plane for is probally 75-80 an hour for a 172 or an archer.

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03-10-2003 10:50 PM  14 years agoPost 7
furyextreme

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USA

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$10k seems a bit much.

Even at $85/hr (with instructor) and 60 hrs (which is really about right - not the 40 that is the bare minimum), you are looking at $5,100.


ROTORCRAFT??

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03-10-2003 10:52 PM  14 years agoPost 8
Wes

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Jonesboro, AR

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head set books and bag

so after head set books and bag your looking at 6k, but you've totally neleccted the fact that you need ground instruction, which you need about 20 hours of. So figure it out.. for how you learn in books.

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03-11-2003 12:21 AM  14 years agoPost 9
Cessna

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Tucson, Arizona

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I got my license in the early 1980's. I worked for and received a ground instructor's rating too. I spent an entire year living, eating, and sleeping airplanes and loved every minute of it!

I haven't flown now for probably 15 years and it doesn't bother me a bit! Getting my license was a life-long dream I had from childhood and I attained it! Follow your dreams!

Steve Cass
Tucson

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03-11-2003 02:20 AM  14 years agoPost 10
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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To Clarify

Yes $10k DOES seem like a bit much.

YES the plane I fly is a beater (1979 Cessna 152, two seater, heater sucks, seats are cracked, it is small and uncomfortable for long flights, paint looks like Greg Brady did it - but it runs and must have be inspected every 100 hours I never had a scary moment ue to mechanical difficulties)

NO it does NOT have a pant-load of avionics (Basic VFR - my instructor hates it, but I like the bare-bones aspect of it)

NO it is not a rotorcraft

Yes I will have at least $6k in it. I am not telling the guy its going to be cheap, just that $10k is more than he will need if he spends his money wisely and shops around.

NO you do NOT have to fly the prettiest, most loaded aircraft to get your PPL.

You can minimize costs by spending your early learning time in a low cost two seater and then later checkout in the nicer aircraft.

Yes, I am paying approx $75/hour (probably will be more expensive with current fuel prices - I am on a "weather hiatus" since November). There were cheaper schools in my area, but none convenient to BOTH work and home so that I could bugger out of work at 5:00 and still be able to finish a 2 hour flight before dark at 8:00pm. There is one south of me that started at $75/hour, before the block discount rates, but it would have been difficult if not impossible to get to after work. As many of you pilots already know, you will only be wasting your money if you train only on the weekends... you spend more time catching up than you do learning new things. Sorry to hear things are so pricey in CA, but even so, you can get expensive planes here,too.

Why, as a student pilot, would you possibly want to get the loaded for bear (and IFR) 172 or complex aircraft, if you still have'nt even figured out how to work the VOR? Actually, I like the VOR, I have never used a GPS, but look forward to it.

NO you DO NOT have to take ground school... that is only a requirement for the Part 141 schools. As I posted, those schools are very structured, scheduled, have special requirements, etc. - but have less hour requirements. However, due to the increased level of guided instruction, I don't think you will really save much. But hey, check it out. Just cause it wasn't for me doesn't mean it will not work for you.

The ground school is not strictly necessary, I am not taking any. It is OPTIONAL. I read and re-read the books (Jeppesen student pilot package), also gone through the Geim written test book about eight times. It is unlikely that ground school will cover something I haven't read and understood or had explained by my instructor. I consistently score 95+ on my test runs through the written.

The guy who wrote the original post is only looking to get his PPL, not IFR, Commercial or rotorcraft. I was simply relating my personal experiences as a fellow student pilot. As a first step, a VFR rating is fine for weekend flying and that sort, but an IFR will really open up new opportunities as you are less likely to get stranded on a trip and will not need a bluebird day every time you want to go somewhere. But like WES said, it'll cost you.

Sorry if I was unclear.

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03-11-2003 03:07 AM  14 years agoPost 11
Airman98

rrKey Veteran

Southern Illinois

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The rental price really depends on where you live. I pay 45hr for a piper Tomahawk and 75hr for a Archer. A CFI is 25hr in S. ILL but up near Chicago it is double or triple this rate.
Hope you get your license Nitro, flying is awesome!!!
Tim

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03-11-2003 04:46 AM  14 years agoPost 12
Wes

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Jonesboro, AR

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airman

airman98 said it best, I live under the class bravo airspave of LAX, and I'm sure its more expensive here to learn than it is to learn in illinois on an uncontrolled field.
I really disagree with 42gpw if you do not do ground school you are doing youself a major disfavor for there is no way you can learnthe FAR's to get your ppl without some help they are way to complex and require you to be a lawyer to interprite them well. The aim section will help you nderstand but not everything is in there. If anyone tells you you can learn to fly without Ground school, they are on crack.

if you look for the absolute cheapest airplane you can find you are lackin in maintance, look around and find an average 1 there is a reason airplanes are usually cheap, and ask questions do they do 100 hour inspections and do they run the engines over the 2000hour overhaul. If you plan to use your PPL for anything other than messing around on weekends you should also get an insturment rating, it makes you ALOT better pilot, and will allow you to learn to navigate complex airspave even if your not in it.

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03-11-2003 06:09 AM  14 years agoPost 13
driftrider

rrVeteran

Cedar Rapids, IA. (In my own little world)

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I'm training at the Iowa City Muni Airport (KIOW), and the two types of planes that they have for training (most of the time) are 3 Cessna 150's (I have 30 hours in a 1968 C-150), and a 1984 Piper PA-28-161 Warrior (which is what I'm training in now). The Cessna's rent for $45 per hour, and the Warrior rents for $79/hr. Primary instruction fees for the Private Pilot are $30/hr, and the advanced training (Inst+) is $40 I think.

I will admit that the C-150 is a nice flying plane, but I don't prefer it as it is too small for me to fly comfortably. The Warrior is smoother and far more powerful, has much better avionics, and flys very nice, but it does require a heavy hand on the elevator to motivate it to rotate quickly or hold a flare. The Warrior also has very tame stall characteristics compared to the C-150. The 150 has a nice clean "snap" to the stall, where the Warrior just kindof sits there with the nose up until you let it drop. The Warrior also puts the poor C-150's to shame in climb performance. In the summer time, with our usual hot and humid weather and HIGH density altitudes, the Cessna is lucky to make 3-400fpm at Vx. The Warrior will head for the sky at 1000fpm pretty easy.
The really cool thing about flying a Cessna 150 is that you can land it them on a dime. It's cool (and a little scary the first few times you do it) to put down the barn doors all the way and slip it down to a landing. It feels like you're coming straight down.

I just got back from the field (finished my night req's and three solo landings at a towered field), I've got 38 total hours and all of my req's except total time met. I've just got to put in probably 4-5 more hours solo practice to polich everything up, one more hour with my CFII to do the pre-checkride, and I'll be ready to checkride. I'm guessing 45-48 hours TT with Private Pilot Cert in hand.

All said and done I'll probably spend $4500 total to get my PPC. That includes books, a decent noise cancelling headset, sectionals, A/FD's, FAA Written and Practical test, and a few other small misc expenses. But it's a very fun thing to do. It's incredible being able to fly 5000 feet above the ground on a clear night and be able to see the lights of every town within 75nm. If I had to choose between R/C helis and Full Scale, I'd choose full scale in a heartbeat. But I want to make a career out of flying too.

My suggestion for you would be this. When you are ready to train, train hard. Get all the money together in advance plus a generous "cushion" to cover unforseen expenses. Then set aside as much time as you can to fly that airplane. If you can train every day, train every day. Also, to save some money and maximize your training time, spend 1.5 hours or more in plane every flight. Startup, runup, taxiing all take time, and the Hobbs meter is runn from the minute you turn start the engine. By having longer sessions you minimize the time wasted doing "non-flying" tasks. By training more often you will learn faster as many flying skills are perishable. Also, I do NOT think that a "formal" ground school is necessary, if you are motivated to read and learn on your own with the guidence of your CFI. However, if you look through your pilot handbook and AIM/FAR are completely lost, then a ground school may be for you. The key to learning the FAR's is to just concentrate on the stuff that relates only to general flight regs, safety, ATC and airspace, weather, and private pilot specific knowledge. Don't bother trying to memorize the whole AIM/FAR. Most of it doesn't even apply to Private Pilots, and if you choose to continue on after the Private, you have plenty of time to learn the IFR, commercial pilot, etc... later. There are LOTS of very good study materials available to guide you on what you should know, and your CFI will also be your best resource.

Most importantly, have fun. Flying is the ultimate freedom.

Mike

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03-11-2003 01:24 PM  14 years agoPost 14
TurboRacer

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CT

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For comparison, I'm flying a Piper PA28 Warrior and it is about $120 an hour for the plane, fuel, and instructor. When I go solo (Next week!!!!) it will only be costing about $85 an hour.

Oh yeah, and I also flew Cessna 172r's (1997) that were about $110 for the plane. It was nice, but not worth the extra money.

Also, I spent about $150 on books, and $250 on a few months in ground school. It REALLY helped as far as explaining confusing topics like airspace, and weight & balance. And for only $250 and 4 hours of my time a week (one night a week) it was WELL worth it. Also, look into an electric flight computer, that damn E6B will get your head spinning!

Good luck.

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03-11-2003 02:16 PM  14 years agoPost 15
42GPW

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North Royalton, Ohio

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Thanks Driftrider/Mike

I was beginning to think I was on crack

Also, good advice regarding time for each flight. I have found that 2 hours is a good mix between getting alot done and overload.

Wes, Cleveland Hopkins IS class Bravo airspace. We fly in , and out of, there every time we go up. After the first couple of flights with my instructor, I was doing all the radio work with clearance, ground and tower. Then its off to the training area about 5 minutes away. Flying out of a class B airport has undoubtedly cost me in terms of time (and therefore, money), but the experience and level of comfort in dealing with the intimidating airspace is well worth it. Plus its really cool to be in "the pattern" with the big jets. It gives you a real respect for those aircraft that fly heavy, clean and slow. Some people can do it without ground school, Wes, and some can't or won't. Depends on your level of motivation and aptitude and if you think it is always better to throw money at something than to look at other options. I don't mean this in a bad way, its justthat some people must work with more limited funds and must be more imaginative and maybe work a little harder. By all means, tell the guy to really consider grond school. I know I thought long and hard on it. Just don't lie to him and tell him must do it. And don't tell him you need a $125/hour airplane because you don't (no matter where you are), at least NOT FOR VFR flight training. (remember, WES, you are getting an aircraft equipped for instrument flight and you apparently equate newness with good maintenenace). Again I say, what is the point of having a brand new, relatively high performance, fully IFR equipped aircraft, and the high rental rates associated with it, if you are only learning to fly around a fixed point?

Now if/when I go on to the instrument rating, well, I think ground school and an expensive aircraft would be necessary.

Also Wes, EVERY aircraft used for commercial purposes such as flight training, MUST be inspected (same level as an annual inspection) every 100 hours, no need to even ask. Along with this is the adherence to the required engine, component, avionics and instrument TBOs. Maintenance will be the same no matter which aircraft you are flying, provided it is a certified aircraft used for "for compensation or hire", that is for commercial purposes, such as rental, ferry flights, flight training, etc.
Maybe you should review the FAR's or take a ground school refresher? yes Wes, that is a joke.

The reasons aircraft are cheaper than others... how much fuel do they burn? How new is it? How well equipped is it? How "pretty" is it ? Is it a "complex" or "high performance" aircraft? A 152 does not burn alot of fuel, is older, not very well equipped, not pretty (except to me) and does not have stellar performance. It does, however, fulfill its intended purpose and is relatively inexpensive.

I hope Nitrospazz does not take our bickering the wrong way and goes for it anyways. It is well worth it.

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03-11-2003 07:09 PM  14 years agoPost 16
sincity

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Pasco, WA

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Damn it's gotten expensive. I got my Commercial Multi Rating about 10 years ago. (wow.. it's been that long )

I wanted to be a cropduster so I learned on taildraggers right from the beggining. 45 an hour for a Piper J3 cub with 65 HP! Whoo Hoo! You put me and my instructor in that plane and we skimmed the treetops for bout 3 miles before gaining any altitude!

I ended with 275 hours between J3 Cub, Cessna 120,140,152,172,206, Piper Senneca 3, Apache, Aztec, and a few others.

I had to pay for living there, $300 a month and took me 8 months to complete. $15,000 total, that's for everything. Food, flying and sleeping.

I have about a 1,000 hours now. Haven't flown in a couple years. Built some time flying skydivers, until I became one...

Shawn

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03-11-2003 11:08 PM  14 years agoPost 17
NitroSpazzz

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Knoxville, TN

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Wow thanks for sharing your knowledge everyone. I will update you as this goes along. I think I will be flying a older Cesna 172 or something like that. My dad used to have part ownership and says he will get back in on it if I will fly. So that is good and he would then share the plane with at least 2 certified teachers and I thknk we could work something out. Once again, thanks

Blake

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03-12-2003 06:22 AM  14 years agoPost 18
Wes

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Jonesboro, AR

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Far's

I know my far's pretty darn well and I know of 2 flights schools at a local airport that do not rally "abide" by the rules, they over fly the 100 hours and 2000 all the time, which requires a fairy permit to do. And just for some adivce the price of fuel has almost nothing to do with cost of aircraft, fuel is about $3.00 a gallon and highest and you burn only another 5or 6 bucks an hour. But the greatest raise in price between old and new aircraft are the cost of engine maintance, for an average airplane an engine overhaul is about 15,000-20,000. The place where these school are located is the busiest class d airspace in the us. And also because maintance is done doesn't mean that its done right, my best advice which was what I did was get a friend (who is a pilot) to go and get checked out in the plane you plan to fly and have him/her take a really good look at it, there are things you may not know about or see they probally will.

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03-12-2003 02:59 PM  14 years agoPost 19
NitroSpazzz

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Knoxville, TN

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Sounds good, thanks for all the info. It looks like the ol' 172 is mine ot fly So that one is old has has old stuff in it. It has been properly maintained and loks new. Thanks again, off I go to find some teachers

Blake

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03-12-2003 09:18 PM  14 years agoPost 20
sincity

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Pasco, WA

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And it's "Ferry Permit"

You guys have me thinking of Tinkerbell for the rest of the afternoon now!

Shawn

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