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11-29-2007 05:25 PM  9 years agoPost 1
Maxime

rrApprentice

Belgium

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how do the big company's such as hirobo and quick uk etc and or other large company's that have mass production CNC parts thread their holes for for example M 3 bolts and or also M6 and bigger...?

do they also use the 3 different taps(the little tools that make the threads, I don't know what's the correct term) for M3 like the kits we buy?If I thread a M3 hole I first have to go through the 2.3mm bore hole with the first tap, then with the second, removing a bit more material and then with the third tap...

Because when I thread M3 into aluminium I have to be carefull not to brake the tap.

Just a little curious about the how to's of mass production.

thanks a lot

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11-29-2007 07:38 PM  9 years agoPost 2
kc8qpu

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sc

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simple!!! CNC does all the work. The way we tap holes we use what they call carbide drills. These are high performance drills not used by the common hobbyist. For every tap they call out for a specific size drill to leave a cetain percentage material in the hole. So you just drill with the correct size drill and then use the tap. There is no multiple tapping done at all.

Carpe Diem!!!

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11-30-2007 01:26 AM  9 years agoPost 3
mdu6

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Montreal

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Threading in aluminium is relatively easy and should not need multiple passes with different taps.

You do need to use cutting oil and sometime (depending on the length) you might have to back out of the hole to get chips out.

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11-30-2007 03:37 AM  9 years agoPost 4
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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simple!!! CNC does all the work. The way we tap holes we use what they call carbide drills. These are high performance drills not used by the common hobbyist. For every tap they call out for a specific size drill to leave a cetain percentage material in the hole. So you just drill with the correct size drill and then use the tap. There is no multiple tapping done at all.
At the risk of bursting a few bubbles here, what you describe is not exactly how it's done.

In aluminum you would have to have a spindle that can do 30K to run a carbide tap drill at anywhere close to the right speed for let's say a 3X.5mm tapped hole. Having said that, a TIN coated HSS drill is more than adequate. They are cheap and last for a lot of holes. In addition, most threads this small are formed and not cut because chips in the hole will break the tap, I don't care if you use a high spiral tap, a gun tap or a straight fluted tap. Chips in the hole eventually kill the tap. Peck tapping is just to slow and there are way too many spindle reversals that add time to the process and eventually take out an expensive spindle motor and drive. This is why roll form taps are the norm for holes this size. Furthermore, there is no way in a production environment that you can stop the machine, open the door and apply a special tapping fluid just to tap holes and make parts that don't cost a fortune to produce. Using coolant is imperative.

If I were running a production shop and tapping holes, depending on how close I needed to hold the depth of the threads and whether or not I was tapping blind holes or through holes would determine if I needed to use a special tapping head just to keep from having to reverse the spindle during a tapping cycle.

TM

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11-30-2007 06:12 AM  9 years agoPost 5
Maxime

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Belgium

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where could I read more about all these sorts of taps? I really had no idea about roll taps and other sorts...

or if someone would be so kind on explaining a bit about it here? Just interested...

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11-30-2007 02:50 PM  9 years agoPost 6
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages, Florida

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where could I read more about all these sorts of taps?
Here's one for starters.....

http://www.precisiontwistdrill.com/...g_prod_taps.asp

I found this by using the GOOGLE search engine..... you may want to try using that for more info/reading material......

You may also want to visit your local library and find a book on machining......there might be more info on the subject there.

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12-07-2007 09:25 AM  9 years agoPost 7
cupra

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leicester uk

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the process you talk about is for a cut tap a lot is also done by a roll tap on CNC machines this is done with a bigger hole and the tap forces a thread up instead of removing metal and it a lot easier to not break the tap as there is no swarf to clear
i would suspect if you are having trouble cutting an M3 in alloy you are doing some thing wrong like not using a cutting oil to stop alloy from sticking to the tap or not clearing the tool it would be best to go in 2 to 3 turns and out 1 turn to clear and break off the swarf as you cut you would not need to do this with a roll tap as there will be no swarf produced forming the thread
drill size is also very impotent a roll tap and a cut tap will need a different size drill and the quality of the tap is also important
we have to tap m1.2 in Titanium and that can be fun we do that with a roll tap

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12-07-2007 11:06 AM  9 years agoPost 8
Maxime

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Belgium

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what's the correct term for the sort of tapping that I did(with the 3 stages)?

what's the difference on roll tapping and cut tapping?

I noticed those 2 tapping methodes don't have cutouts in the taps and a conical piece on the tip so that there aren't any metal chips that block the way.

I'm trying to look it up but can't find the correct term in my language

thanks

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12-07-2007 11:57 AM  9 years agoPost 9
cupra

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leicester uk

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you would have probably used a cut tap they can be a set of whats called a 1st 2nd and 3rd or lead tap a 2nd and plug tap
these cut a thread buy removing metal from the hole a roll tap is only 1 tap and it is slightly triangle in shape you might not even notice it was that shape it has no flute or grove for the cut metal to clear in to as a thread tooth is pushed up and formed into shape by swagging the metal and not removing metal
for my modeling i use both methods
the interesting thing is when you come to die the end of the rod for example m2 thread with a cut die you would start with a 2mm rod with a roll die you would turn the end of the rod down to 1.8mm ish not sure of the exact size with out a tapping book to hand
and roll the thread up to form a 2mm thread
i hope this helps

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01-31-2008 12:50 AM  9 years agoPost 10
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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how do the big company's such as hirobo and quick uk etc and or other large company's that have mass production CNC parts thread their holes for for example M 3 bolts and or also M6 and bigger...?
You should not have any trouble at all tapping a M3 or larger hole in aluminum as long as you use a lubricant. In a pinch you can use a spray cleaner like 409 or some kerosene if you don’t have the specialized cutting fluids made for aluminum. Typically taps are broken when you don’t use a machine to keep it straight. Tapping by hand is risky when the tap is smaller than a M3.

The biggest advantage of a rolled thread is strength. Rolled threads are stronger than cut threads (assuming proper pilot holes for each) because the grain structure is formed with a rolled thread and weakened by a cut thread. Once you tap 2 times the diameter in depth you have reached the strength of the screw anyway so the advantage doesn’t usually show up unless the material is sheet metal.

Never ever tap aluminum dry. Spit on the tap if you have to, saliva works wonders.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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02-06-2008 03:30 AM  9 years agoPost 11
busted blade

rrApprentice

orlando,florida

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i use these spiral flute taps in cnc and hand tapping all the time in aluminum and ss. cut material comes out in long strings like a drill bit.you still drill the appropriate hole first. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/GSDRV...000000044204315
no clogging or chip packing. thread forming works well too with a slightly stronger thread.

bling bling, cha ching......... but honey

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02-06-2008 06:13 PM  9 years agoPost 12
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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You have to have a catalog number. You can't get a link to a cataloge page.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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02-06-2008 09:23 PM  9 years agoPost 13
busted blade

rrApprentice

orlando,florida

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http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRI...PMT4NO=37347411

this works

bling bling, cha ching......... but honey

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02-07-2008 12:48 AM  9 years agoPost 14
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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now the link works but that is a bottoming tap usually for a blind hole. I use a gun tap that pushes the chip in front of the tap so it doesn't clog. Spirol taps are not good for hand tapping.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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02-07-2008 01:58 AM  9 years agoPost 15
busted blade

rrApprentice

orlando,florida

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the chips come out in long strings kinda like a drill bit with a heavy feed.there are little to no small chips like a conventional hand tap. ive been a machinest for 15 years and im just sharing what i know to work. i have used them for hand tapping with good success. just run 'em in straight and all will be well

bling bling, cha ching......... but honey

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02-13-2008 03:28 AM  9 years agoPost 16
thrx

rrNovice

Montreal, Canada

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Depending on the scale of production, they might be using a dedicated vertical drilling/tapping center like this one: http://www.haascnc.com/details_VMC_...33#VMCTreeModel

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02-13-2008 10:47 PM  9 years agoPost 17
bagobitz

rrVeteran

saddleworth,lancs,UK

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I don't know if things are different here in UK,-most hand-taps have 3 flutes,yes they come in sets...taper/second/plug.

you can usually do a through-hole with just the second.

we also have machine-taps. these only have 2 flutes and are tapered. the leading edges are ground at an angle so the swarf projects forward...I don.t know if a plug/bottoming version is available....I used them with a tapping-head which went into a pillar drill in place of the chuck. feeding the tap into the work would engage a clutch to screw the tap in...lifting reversed the mechanism to wind the tap out....it was a quick and easy to drill and tap large batches of die-cast alloy components. Steel/cast iron were also easily tapped and the taps could also be used by hand.

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02-13-2008 11:55 PM  9 years agoPost 18
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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I don't know if things are different here in UK,-most hand-taps have 3 flutes,yes they come in sets...taper/second/plug.

you can usually do a through-hole with just the second.

we also have machine-taps. these only have 2 flutes and are tapered. the leading edges are ground at an angle so the swarf projects forward...I don.t know if a plug/bottoming version is available....I used them with a tapping-head which went into a pillar drill in place of the chuck. feeding the tap into the work would engage a clutch to screw the tap in...lifting reversed the mechanism to wind the tap out....it was a quick and easy to drill and tap large batches of die-cast alloy components. Steel/cast iron were also easily tapped and the taps could also be used by hand.
Things have changed since the days of overhead lineshafts and cone drives.

The original ? was:
how do the big company's such as hirobo and quick uk etc and or other large company's that have mass production CNC parts thread their holes for for example M 3 bolts and or also M6 and bigger...?

do they also use the 3 different taps(the little tools that make the threads, I don't know what's the correct term) for M3 like the kits we buy?If I thread a M3 hole I first have to go through the 2.3mm bore hole with the first tap, then with the second, removing a bit more material and then with the third tap...

Because when I thread M3 into aluminium I have to be carefull not to brake the tap.

Just a little curious about the how to's of mass production.
It all depends on the tap size, the material being tapped and the fit or tolerance of the finished hole as well as how many parts you need to make to complete a particular production run. I have programmed and run machines that have the capability to tap at 6,000 rpm and used this facility to tap 0-80 holes as well as 1.6mm holes with great ease. There have also been times when tap depth wasn't as important so I've use a tapping head loaded by the machines toolchanger that allowed holes to be tapped without reversing the machines spindle and this saved time. I used a macro to control the tapping cycle. The spindle motor and drive has to be able to overcome the inertia of the spindle when it reverses at speed along with a quick reacting Z axis to follow the spindle reversal accurately enough not to break taps.

The are also specific instances where the parts can be machined with a tool called a thriller. This a tool that can circle mill the hole and thread mill the hole to the desired thread size. This is an Emuge product. They also make tools called Draps that combine a drill and tap on the same shank and this is good for through tapped holes. Thread milling is used in a lot of instances when tapping is not desired due to cost or tap life versus number of holes per tap.

I recently did a job for Mercedes where an M14X1.5mm tapped hole in 1018 forged steel blanks were needed. There were two drills, a boring bar and a roll form tap needed and the parts were loaded, unloaded and machined in less than 20 seconds each. This was done on a gang type CNC lathe. The taps were run at over 800 rpm and will machine upwards of 1200 holes apiece before they need to be changed out.

TM

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02-14-2008 12:24 AM  9 years agoPost 19
bagobitz

rrVeteran

saddleworth,lancs,UK

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T.M. Thanks for that insight, that's truly mind-boggling.I would have thought that sort of machinery would be very costly and need a goodly batch to ake it worthwhile setting-up.

i had come across the "drap" before, but the idea of milling a thread is quite amazing.

ah, well I guess i'll just have to put a bit of tallow on the belt,treadle-up the lathe and continue practicing "striking2 a thread with a chaser!

incidentally, there are thread-forming screws available ,which have the "triangular" form mentioned earlier in this thread 9no pun intended ) strictly speaking it's more a trochoid shape, like the wankel-engine rotor.

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