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HelicopterThunder TigerRAPTOR 50 › Engine problems....going mad
11-28-2007 06:42 PM  10 years agoPost 1
parafun

rrNovice

belgium

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Hello,

I'm a beginner with Nitro (now, ok that's out of the way, so I can start to ask stupid questions)

I have a Raptor 50V2 with the stock TT 50 Pro engine in it.

I have some very strange problems:

1) in order for my engine to start I must set the low speed screw (inside throttle barel) to 3.5 turns !!! Less then that the engine simply won't start.

Although in raptortechnique it is stated that initially this should be set to 1.5 turns

My high speed thumb screw is set to 2 turns.

When I bought the raptor(new from a friend who never finished assembling it)
it ran fine for a while without overheating (temps max 80degr C)
But yesterday I could not make it start anymore.
The low speed screw was even set to 6 turns. Shouldn't that be way to rich???

Anyway, 3.5 turns is the minimum I need to even start the engine now.

The engine is smoking, so it is not to lean (I guess). However, now I think the engine temp is getting high even when on idle (90degr C).

The trick on raptortechnique to setup the initial low speed screw by blowing into it until you hear a hissing sound I did and it comes up to 1.5 turn when I hear the hissing (as it should logically), but the engine does not start until 3.5 turns.

So, I totally confused on the tuning part now

2) If I unplug the glowplug electrical feed, the engine stops.... even after long time warming up.

Totally confused again???

Jesus, my other Heli is an electrical one (TT Titan E325), never had such problems with that one... Just switch on and fly.

Help, help.... I can't fly..... I need to fly.... If I don't fly.....I...I....

I also fly paragliders, but the weathers to bad now....so then I fly heli's because I need to fly,

So please please help a totally frustrated, slightly going crazy belgian guy !!

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11-28-2007 06:47 PM  10 years agoPost 2
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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First thing to do is replace all the fuel lines, specifically the clunk line, its probably falling apart of colapsing on itself.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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11-28-2007 07:00 PM  10 years agoPost 3
parafun

rrNovice

belgium

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What is the clunk line exactly (sorry, not native english)

But I would doubt it, because its a brand new raptor. The fuel lines are barely used.
The raptor has maximum 4 flights (10 min each)

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11-28-2007 07:19 PM  10 years agoPost 4
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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The fuel line inside the fuel tank attached to the metal fuel pickup, known as a clunk, it needs to be discarded and replaced when you build the helicopter.

It may not be your problem but it will be soon if you dont replace it.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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11-28-2007 07:26 PM  10 years agoPost 5
BPFlyer

rrApprentice

Wichita, KS

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The clunk is the metal object at the end of the main tank fuel line located in the main tank. If you have a header tank, there is a smaller clunk on that fuel line as well.

You never mentioned how far open the carb is when you are trying to start the motor. Perhaps, you have the throttle stop set to low and are handicapping a low throttle position / throttle stop position with an overly rich fuel mixture? Don't know really without a little more information on your mechanical and radio setup.

Please explain a little more of your setup.

Fly it like you stole it!

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11-28-2007 07:46 PM  10 years agoPost 6
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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sounds like the glow plug I'd bad.

Sounds like the engine is overheating. You are running way to rich. This would imply that you may have an air leak somewhere?

Recommend you set the needles back to factory specs. Replace the glow plug and find the air leak( when in doubt replace the fuel lines.

Old Guys Rule!

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11-28-2007 07:54 PM  10 years agoPost 7
BPFlyer

rrApprentice

Wichita, KS

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Looking at your temps a little closer, 83C to 88C should be your temp window, maybe a little closer to the 83C side to save the motor some wear.

I'm guessing these numbers were before you had the trouble starting the engine.

Are you positive the glow plug and glow driver are fully functional? How about the remote glow, if you have one installed. I use a glow driver with meter, if it gets near the bottom of "green" zone my helis won't start. Could be as simple as the lack of enough glow to overcome the way rich fuel settings you are describing.

Do a check of the carb/filter or lines for any trash. I once had a brand new OS motor come from the factory with a poly fuzz material in the fuel inlet, it drove me nuts until I tore down the carb and found the trash causing the motor to erraticly run lean.

Fly it like you stole it!

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11-28-2007 07:58 PM  10 years agoPost 8
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages, Florida

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Sounds like the engine is overheating. You are running way to rich.
Not sure what he means by this. The sentences contradict each other.....If he is running "way too rich", how can the engine be overheating ???
1) in order for my engine to start I must set the low speed screw (inside throttle barel) to 3.5 turns !!! Less then that the engine simply won't start.

Although in raptortechnique it is stated that initially this should be set to 1.5 turns

My high speed thumb screw is set to 2 turns.
Tuning a TT 50 motor is unlike any other motor I've owned.....

First of all, the low speed screw being out 3.5 turns on that motor IS NOT unusual. You may even need to turn it out even more.....

The high speed needle at 2 turns for that motor IS WAY TOO LEAN..... You'll need to come out in the area of about 5 turns and work from there.....

Just to be safe, replace the glo plug with a known good one. I would recommend the Enya 3 followed by the OS 8.

I also agree that the fuel line that comes with the kit is junk and should be replaced.

Other than the suggestions from me and others, I would highly recommend that you find someone locally with experience that can help you sort out your problem.... Without being there and actually seeing what is going along with the rest of your settings, problems like this are often times very difficult to resolve with a few keystrokes on the keyboard....

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11-28-2007 08:36 PM  10 years agoPost 9
parafun

rrNovice

belgium

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OK,
thanks for the replies already.

I replaced to glow plug and now the engines runs without electrical feed. So that's good already.

The engines runs fine on idle now.

The low-speed screw is now set to 3.5 turns.
The High-speed screw still to 2 (I'll try tomorrow with 5 turns as replied)

Now, when I increase throttle to about half stick (when the hoovering should normally start)
the engine starts to run irregular (high revs, spitting,but wanting to stop,

So what does this mean?

Lot's of smoke is produced, so that would mean it is running rich.

Man, I hate winter... 5pm its dark, so come back from work and dark... not much time to experiment

There are no clubs here were I live. You know, Belgium is to much densly populated and as soon as somebody farts someother guy thinks this makes to much noise and harasses the police. This means most Nitro clubs did,'t get a license renewal and most of them are gone.

As to getting some experienced help: I got one friend, but he is unavailable for a couple of weeks....and I just can't wait that long

Another question: I've heard that the TT stock engine is crap and I should replace it with an OS engines, which should be much easier to tune and should be way better.
What are your comments on this statement?
Can the OS50 SX Hyper easily be installed in the Raptor 50V2 without modifications?

Oh well, tomorrow there's another evening !
It's dark so, I'm going to harass my cat with my Lama flying indoors...ok, it's not so much fun as the raptor but I need to fly as stated before

Patrick
TT Raptor 50 V2, TT Mini Titan E325, LamaV4
thanks

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11-28-2007 09:31 PM  10 years agoPost 10
JuanRodriguez

rrProfessor

The Villages, Florida

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Now, when I increase throttle to about half stick (when the hoovering should normally start)
the engine starts to run irregular (high revs, spitting,but wanting to stop,

So what does this mean?

Lot's of smoke is produced, so that would mean it is running rich.
Yes, normally an indication that it's rich.... BUT, you should not make any adjustments until you can coax it into a hover at these settings .... you want to "clear the crank case" of any excess fuel and bring the motor up to operating temp. before fiddling with the needles anymore....
Another question: I've heard that the TT stock engine is crap and I should replace it with an OS engines, which should be much easier to tune and should be way better.
While I would agree that this statement is generally true, your TT 50 can be made to work just fine...... not as much power as the OS BUT........ you are just starting out learning...... It's better to stay with what you already own and spend the extra money on fuel.......for now....

And yes, no modifications are needed to install the OS motor, or a YS motor for that matter....

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11-28-2007 09:39 PM  10 years agoPost 11
wannabfishin02

rrApprentice

barnhart, Mo-63012

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I dont know much about the TT engine (never owned one) But The os 50 hyper is a very good motor, and can be installed into that helicopter without modifications. With that being said, I believe you can get that motor running fine with some tuning. Im not familiar with the TT motor, but from your description, I would say it sounds too lean. Have you changed all your fuel lines? If you have I missed that part of the post. But an air leak will cause your motor to run lean even when the needles are properly set. The high rev at mid stick sounds lean to me though (depending on your throttle curve that you have set in the radio) Im assuming also that your not into much 3d as of yet but a suggestion to help you out later would be to set your hover at 3/4 stick so that when you go into idle up for inverted and such that you can use center stick for zero pitch. Hopefully someone on here can help you out with the TT motor that is familiar with it. good luck

A bad day of flying is better than a good day of work

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11-29-2007 12:37 AM  10 years agoPost 12
Zaneman007

rrElite Veteran

Texas - USA

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Not sure what he means by this. The sentences contradict each other
Let me bring it down a notch. If the needles are on the rich side and the engine is still getting hot, this usually indicates and air leak.

I am glad to hear that replacing the glow plug helped. Keep in mind that if the engine gets to hot the glow plug will burn. If you take the power off of the glow and the engine dies, that implies the glow plug is toast.

Sounds like the engine is starting. I am assuming you put everything back to factory specs. The next thing you will want to do is set the low end. Do this by starting the engine, now pinch the fuel line as close to the carb as you can. The engine should speed up and die in 3 to 5 seconds. If it goes less than 3 seconds it is to lean if it goes higher than 5 seconds it is to rich. Turning the low end clockwise will lean it out and counter clockwise will richen it up.

Once you get that down, you want to work on the high end. You want a smooth transition form idle to hover. If it spits, sputters and spats, you need to adjust the high end. I would recommend starting the high end a quarter turn to the rich side. (If the engine gets hot forget about tuning it. Just set it down and let it cool. Plus if you know that you are starting on the rich side, you know to that you want to lean it out) Now start leaning it out until you get a smooth transition from idle to hover, no spits, spats, or sputters.

After that repeat the first step then the second step. The needles interact, one effects the other.

Next would be to hover the heli for 30 seconds and set it down. the engine should slow down. If it hangs, you could be a little on the rich side.

Next repeat all of the above. The adjustments, if any, should be very small. adjustments to the low end should be the width of a screw drive blade. the high end should be a click or two at a time, no more.

Next do climb outs and adjust the high end until you are happy.
Then repeat the above.

There is the finger test and the temp gun and ......

All of the above is assuming that there are no air leaks. a bad fuel line or a loose muffle screw can play havic with the engine. So make sure everything is tight or you'll find yourself spinning your wheels. And when all seems lost. Reset all of the needles to factory spec and start over. If it will not start with the factory settings, chances are something else is going on.

Good luck.

Or as wanabfishin said, Buy an OS.

Old Guys Rule!

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11-29-2007 03:14 PM  10 years agoPost 13
TerranAce007

rrVeteran

Austin, TX

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I had tons of issues with my TT 50 and it never ran well or made good power. It also caused me a few boom strikes when I had to auto in from a flame out. I bought a used OS 50 Hyper here on RR and the difference was like night and day.

TT has a new 50 engine coming out, but I would stick with either and OS or YS since they have proven reliability.

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11-29-2007 03:19 PM  10 years agoPost 14
BarracudaHockey

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Jacksonville FL

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Did you replace the fuel lines in the tanks?

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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11-29-2007 10:45 PM  10 years agoPost 15
parafun

rrNovice

belgium

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Hey Guys, thanks

Zaneman007, I will do your suggestions as soon as I can. I hope tomorrow, today I got home to late to go out and start the heli (you know neighbours! gotta love them)
But those are definitly very good suggestions, thanks for explaining the pinching trick. It is clear to me now. I searched for a good explanation on the pinching trick but never found a clear explanation. Yours is perfect thanks.

It is all getting a bit clearer now.... I hope

I haven't replaced the fuel line yet because I don't have a spare one at this time.

I still have to go and get to the local RC shop to get some stuff. Although belgium is very small, the only decent RC shop is about 80Km aways and they close at 6, so ...... time time time
Once I'm at the RC shop I will probably see an OS 50 Hyper, I might just pick it up also (to have as spare )

Just another question:
The fuel line inside the fuel tank attached to the metal fuel pickup, known as a clunk, it needs to be discarded and replaced when you build the helicopter.
So that means it is just a simple fuel line. nothing else attached to it. So, if it is new, what could be wrong with it?
I don't understand that yet.

You are talking about the internal fuel line connected to the clunk inside the HEADER TANK or MAIN FUEL TANK?

If it is bad, what are the symptoms? Not enough fuel flowing to the carb? Bubbles?

Just to understand.

Thank you all for this great information. I will try all this stuff this weekend and keep you posted on my success or failure.

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11-30-2007 12:58 AM  10 years agoPost 16
ollie73

rrNovice

sydney

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engine problems

try this, remove the intire fuel system from your heli,
drain the fuel,and conect all the tubes bact to together. Block the carbie line and presure line with a rivit or something that fits giving you an air tight seal.Methonol expands with heat, so by submerdging in hot water (not boiled),you are presurizing the vapoures left inside the system,lines and all.Tip:the tank wants to float and people tend to instinctly use there fingers to hold it down.The potato masher works great,(when the wife isnt around).This method will expose the tinyest hole,split with a bubble. If all is good and the engine has been run and left for any lengh of time the exhaust niple might be blocked.A pin will soon tel you.If that is good then the damage my be in the piston and liner.If the engine has been sitting long enough rust will develop in the bearings, and crank.When you try to start that rust turnes into a fine powder and wears out the liner in no time.Thats your worst case sinario.To clean the bearings use petrol(gas)and a tooth brush sized wire brush.Spin the bearings up with the crank,and fan reinstaled on the back tire of a bike,compresed air works good but dont let the rpm get to high.This removes rust were you carnt get to.repeat til the bearing run smooth with no binding.To check piston and linner.Remove taking note witch is front on piston(very important), clean and lube with crc.From the bottom of the liner incert the piston and gently slide to the top.If the piston stops flush with the top af the liner, replace it. Do not force anything.pay attention when disassembling for reasembly.This is my method and has served me well.One other thing that just came to mind, be sure the engine mount and engine sit flat.Mounting an engine on a bent or uneven mount can ditort the case enough to cause problems.Good luck

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11-30-2007 12:42 PM  10 years agoPost 17
Gary H

rrVeteran

Minnesota USA

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(quote) So that means it is just a simple fuel line. nothing else attached to it. So, if it is new, what could be wrong with it?
I don't understand

As Barracuda said REPLACE the fuel line inside the tank with NITRO line, They are JUNK, Mine went bad, don`t get it to long or it will hang up on u. Do the same with the header, so this means do all the lines.
And yes you need a clunk or fuel magnet on the ends inside the tanks.

Gary H

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11-30-2007 03:27 PM  10 years agoPost 18
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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If you're going to argue, good luck I hope it works out for you.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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11-30-2007 06:33 PM  10 years agoPost 19
parafun

rrNovice

belgium

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Hello,

I'm not argueing, I just want to understand what the problem is. People say it is crap, OK, but why? what is not functioning properly?

BTW: I went to the RC Shop today and bought an OS 50SX Hyper...I'll mount it tonight.

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11-30-2007 06:41 PM  10 years agoPost 20
BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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The clunk line included with Raptors, indeed most kits, is junk. They want it thin and flexable so it stays in the fuel but its very susceptable to damage from the exhaust gas and will colapse in on itself and cause tuning problems. There are a few things anyone that has owned a raptor before will do when building another one.

Replace the tank lines with a good high quality flexable fuel line, and discard the tail rotor hub and replace it with PV0499 being among the first two.

You can find others at http://www.raptortechnique.com and http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/...?article_id=836

I hate those engines but most times they can be made to run accepably, if not consistently, you have something else wrong unless you really got a lemon of an engine.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

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