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HelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › Glitches with FM Receiver
11-28-2007 12:03 AM  10 years agoPost 1
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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I have been flying airplanes for years with a Futaba 8UAFS with FM receivers and have always worked very well. I recently got into heli's therefore transferred one of my FM receivers into the Align T-Rex 600N. The first 3 flights (the heli and mine) were at a fun fly and did not appear to have any glitches. I have flown at two other locations, one of which appeared to be fine also. The last location I was getting a few glitches (I have flown there twice and was getting hit the first time too, I think). I had a fairly stable hover at 15' and whammo, it had 2 or 3 sharp jolts to the left (it was banked 20 degrees left), luckily I brought it down in one piece. Whew....

I have been tinkering with it, adjusting servo arms and ball links, but don't believe I loosened anything. In fact, I verified most accessible bolts, screws, etc. were tight before this last flight.

Does this sound like outside interference or something loose and causing interference? Also, is this typical with FM? I just ordered the XPS module and receiver for my radio, so will that solve it, or merely cover up a problem?

What are typical sources of interference on a heli?

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11-28-2007 03:48 AM  10 years agoPost 2
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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If you're new to helicopters, you're new to glitches, as there are a lot more sources of RF noise in a helicopter than there are in your typical plane.

If you're new to electrics on top of it, you've also introduced a whole 'nother source of glitches -- the electronic speed control (ESC).

FM and PCM receivers are both equally susceptible to the noise from the heli mechanics (loose metal fittings, bad bearings that cause RF noise, poor antenna routing with respect to the servos, ESC, and motor) as both use frequency modulation as the means of getting information from the transmitter to the receiver. PCM just handles noise differently than the PPM receiver.

The belt-driven tail rotor has been known to generate random static discharges that can glitch your radio. If you have a carbon fiber tail boom and carbon fiber side frames, it's not uncommon for people to use short pieces of wire to electrically bond the tail rotor case to the carbon boom, the carbon boom to the carbon frames, and even bond all that to the negative side of the battery. Periodic use of an anti-static spray on the belt has been known to help.

There's no reason that an FM radio won't work in an electric heli (my three Trex 450s and one Kyosho EP400XP all fly glitch free with FM receivers).

If you don't have some form of ferrite toroid on the cable between your speed control and the receiver, get one, and install it.

Route your antenna FAR away from the motor and speed control, as well as the servo and gyro cables. Keep those away from the speed control and motor, as well.

The 2.4 GHz systems are less prone to the typical RF interference that can cause your FM or PCM radio to glitch. They solve a lot of problems with electric helis (and planes). Since it looks like there's an XPS system in your near future, keep up the good ideas of prudent cable routing and electronics placement in the airframe, but make sure that the power supply that you're using to run the RX is capable of supplying all the current you need for your system without sagging much below about 4.5 volts. The 2.4 GHz systems are less tolerant to momentary power supply voltage drops than the 72 MHz systems are.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-28-2007 03:51 AM  10 years agoPost 3
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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The routing for the 2 into 1 might be an issue, too.

I think you will be OK once you get the XPS installed.

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!

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11-28-2007 03:56 AM  10 years agoPost 4
helimatt

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Lafayette, IN

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I fly a PPM receiver on a Nitro Kyosho Caliber 30. At first I had a few small glitches- I moved the antenna to straight out the back to the vertical tail, no more glitching now at all.

In general flying FM (PPM or PCM) receivers means care must be taken in equipment placement and antenna routing. The belt-driven tail helis, and ones with carbon frames seem to produce or promote static discharge Rf noise. Silicone lube on the belt has helped my Trex 450 and 600's in that regard. I plan to fly the FM with PCM receivers for a long while yet.

Like they said, the 2.4GHz system should be trouble free.

Never, ever, ever, ever give up.

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11-28-2007 04:03 AM  10 years agoPost 5
wannabfishin02

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barnhart, Mo-63012

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2.4 is the quickest and easiest solution. PCM would offer a failsafe setting which would help with safety, or patience with your current components taking note of the previous posts suggestions.

A bad day of flying is better than a good day of work

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11-28-2007 04:09 AM  10 years agoPost 6
JEEPWORLD2002

rrKey Veteran

BLUEBELL PA USA

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tster you need to take some pic and post them so we can see how you routed your wiring. What servos are you running. what gyro ? are you using a battery or bec ? what kind ? and the last time you flew it, it glitched ? or time b4. Just for the sake of doing it I would test fly it where it wasnt glitching. If it is still there, check you main bearings. I pre lube all my bearing when assembling my helis did you ? Do you have a torque tube tail ?

Trex600n Trex500 Mikado LoGo5003d// Hacker, CastleCreations,Ys 50, JR 7703d/8900, Radix

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11-28-2007 04:11 AM  10 years agoPost 7
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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Thanks all for the advice so far.

dkshema, this is the nitro heli not the electric, but many of your points are well taken.

Looks like I'm going to be anxious for my XPS system to arrive....

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11-28-2007 04:17 AM  10 years agoPost 8
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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Jeep:

I'm running airtronics 94357's with a Futaba 401 gyro and 9254 servo. I'm also using the Align 2-1 regulator with a 1900 mah LiPo. It's not the pro so it has the belt driven tail.

The lat two times were the glitches and they were both at the suspect field.

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11-28-2007 04:54 AM  10 years agoPost 9
dkshema

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Cedar Rapids, IA

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Since this is the Nitro version, you don't have to worry about the speed control noise, but you still need to be careful about wire routing and antenna routing.

I've had excellent luck with both PPM (FM) and PCM receivers in all helis I've owned. I've currently got about ten different helis operational, I think two of them have PCM RX, the remainder all PPM (FM). This includes the four small electrics.

One thing you still might want to cosider is to install a ferrite toroid on the cable going from your gyro to the receiver. In the past I'd had a few "predictable" glitches on certain helis -- they would always occur about the same spot in the sky, with the same TX antenna to heli orientation. I recalled that Hirobo recommends using a filtered cable between the RX and the gyro in their helis. I added a toroid to my gyro cable and those few predictable glitches are history.

All my helis now sport that toroid.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-28-2007 05:35 AM  10 years agoPost 10
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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You moved the antenna.

Did the glitches start after the move?

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!

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11-28-2007 05:59 AM  10 years agoPost 11
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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Good question.... The glitches "may" have started after changing the gear around so the antenna is now opposite the muffler side.

The only wire it is now running close to is the ground wire for the Align 2-1 regulator. Could that cause any issues?

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11-28-2007 06:08 AM  10 years agoPost 12
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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Not sure, but it couldn't hurt to reroute the antenna.

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!

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11-28-2007 06:15 AM  10 years agoPost 13
JEEPWORLD2002

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BLUEBELL PA USA

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yes it can. I was also gonna say keep the 2&1 far away from the rx and use a ferrite ring on the power wire to rx. also try a battery too if it glitches after trying other options. bec s are known to cause noise.

Trex600n Trex500 Mikado LoGo5003d// Hacker, CastleCreations,Ys 50, JR 7703d/8900, Radix

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11-30-2007 01:01 AM  10 years agoPost 14
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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I thought more about it and I did have a flight at a different location in between my glitching flights. No problems at this other location.

My XPS system should be here in a day or two and can see if that takes care of my issue.

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11-30-2007 03:06 AM  10 years agoPost 15
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Jeep -- no BEC -- this is the NITRO version. I made the same erroneous assumption first time around.

-----
Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

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11-30-2007 03:48 AM  10 years agoPost 16
JEEPWORLD2002

rrKey Veteran

BLUEBELL PA USA

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in his pic he is using an align 2in1 ?? isnt he??

Trex600n Trex500 Mikado LoGo5003d// Hacker, CastleCreations,Ys 50, JR 7703d/8900, Radix

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11-30-2007 04:34 AM  10 years agoPost 17
T-ster

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Allen, TX

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Yep, have the Align 2in1 contraption. Works good so far.

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11-30-2007 11:28 PM  10 years agoPost 18
T-ster

rrNovice

Allen, TX

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Received the XPS module and receiver today for my Futaba 8UAFS. Installed it, linked the 2 together, did a range check and flew.

and the survey says......

EXCELLENT! It has taken away the twitching servos while the heli was off and stationary (except for the gyro servo, of course). Perfect connection, no glitches. Even the interference you get when you connect the starter shaft is gone. Mighty impressive.

I realized one problem though. Now I have to buy at least 5 more receivers for my planes.....

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11-30-2007 11:33 PM  10 years agoPost 19
rcadd1ct

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Richardson, Texas

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Cool!

-RCA .......... Making Cuisinarts Fly!!!!!!!

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HelicopterRadio - Servo - Gyro - Gov - Batt › Glitches with FM Receiver
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