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HelicopterMain Discussion › Learning inverted backwards flight
11-26-2007 07:48 PM  9 years agoPost 1
Futura57

rrApprentice

UK

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I've decided it's time to get well outside of my comfort zone and grasp this particular nettle. I've been putting it off for ages. I'd really appreciate some advice from people who can do this well. Ideally I'm looking for that golden nugget of info to focus on, along the lines of the old "aileron stick under the wing that drops" to level out your plane when it's flying towards you.

I propose to put some time on my Reflex Sim to crack this over the Winter. It's very frustrating at the moment as I am simply all over the place and crashing within 10 seconds. Trouble is, when I get in a panic, I have no intuition in this orientation. The best I can do is whack in some negative pitch to gain height.

I am comfortable flying upright forwards/backwards and inverted forwards, but I'm damned if I can get my head around this one. My strategy for forwards inverted is to lead with my aileron and do the opposite with the yaw. Similarly for upright backwards I can lead with my yaw, then do the opposite with the aileron. Either way I follow the familiar thumbs in or thumbs out motion. Trouble is, with backward inverted I can't lead with either thumb

I've stopped to think about which controls are reversed; these being pitch (obviously), yaw and aileron. So much for the theory.

Starting from a steady inverted nose-in hover about 20ft up I am feeding in the tiniest amount of forward cyclic to get moving very slowly. A she inches away I aim to turn her away to my left, so I feed in a little right yaw. Before I know it I've done half a funnel (not intended) then I'm in the ground again.

My biggest problems are definitely yaw and aileron.

So please pass on any practical tips that helped you through this stage (including Manny).

Hardware eventually fails - Software eventually works!

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11-26-2007 08:06 PM  9 years agoPost 2
Shawn Pierce

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Galliano, Louisiana

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okay you know how your thumbs are for upright foward, now just flip over. same way, right and right to go left. Left and left to go right. but now your thumbs are more at the bottom of your remote instead of the top. I hope you understand. there is a pattern here. upside down foward and backwards upright have you either pushing the sticks together to turn or pulling them away from each other to turn. upside down backwards and upright foward have you moving them the same way but instead of pushing forward in you regular upright forward flight you are pulling back and together. confused enough??......

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11-26-2007 08:12 PM  9 years agoPost 3
Ken Filloon

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Highland, Michigan

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I'm looking for that golden nugget of info to focus on
Lead the turns with rudder.

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11-26-2007 08:13 PM  9 years agoPost 4
Jag72

rrProfessor

South of Boston

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inverted backwards..

Hardest thing for me to drill into my head was learning what to do with the boom during inverted backwards ....once I realized that pulling back elevator always pulls the boom up then I was all set...if you see the tail drop just pull back elevator and you're flat again...or pull back hard and flip right side up..

it worked for me...but hey..i'm kind of nutty..

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11-26-2007 08:35 PM  9 years agoPost 5
copperclad

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NY

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hi Futura57
i'm not sure if this will help as i have RF G3.5 , with RF you can have it save aircraft position so it starts there after a reset , and i save it in inverted nose in flight , so on reset you are right back in the air with what you are trying to learn , HTH , dana

this is a great photo from your gallery , nice work!

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11-26-2007 09:37 PM  9 years agoPost 6
Jeff polisena

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westpalmbeachflorida usa

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oops

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11-26-2007 10:05 PM  9 years agoPost 7
Rogan

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Houston, Scotland - UK

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"aileron stick under the wing that drops"
Learning it parrot fashion will never really work. Just keep trying it for a couple of mins a day on the sim. The trick is not to spend too much time on it.

Give it a few mins, until the frustration builds up, and then do something else. One day it will just click, and you will be able to do it with full control.

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11-26-2007 10:16 PM  9 years agoPost 8
Chief_USN

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Chesapeake, VA

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Give it a few mins, until the frustration builds up, and then do something else. One day it will just click, and you will be able to do it with full control.
That's what I did with piro-flips on the sim. I just could not get them started to save my life. One day I finally got one started and after that, it was pretty simple to get them started. Now it's a matter of getting them sustained in one spot and then getting the guts to try them for real. I did do them once but not sustained and then had to take an unwanted break from flying and just haven't worked up the guts to try them again.

Chad

Team HeliProz 12-14
US Navy Chiefs...Unity, Service, & Navigation to the Fleet since 1893

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11-26-2007 10:54 PM  9 years agoPost 9
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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I found inverted backwards easy.

Both sticks go in the same direction. (Left rudder and Left Aileron.)

Just take it up high and start doing circuits...If you blow it, you will not crash if you are high enough.

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11-27-2007 12:08 AM  9 years agoPost 10
HOTROD2

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East Tennessee-USA

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I just started working on inverted backwards (actual flight, have got it down pretty good on sim already) this weekend also and the hardest thing for me is just getting used to seeing the heli in the new orientation and reading what it is doing in a turn. It just looks plain weird. Right now I'm just focusing on holding a straight and level path across the field. Hope fully next weekend I can get comfortable enough with it to actually not bail out half way through a turn.

T-rex 600N, EVO 50, T-rex 450 x2, DX7

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11-27-2007 12:45 AM  9 years agoPost 11
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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My first turn comes out like a pro... problem is that when I'm getting to my second turn I'm already knife edge

I think the problem is overcorrecting with aileron and not using enough Yaw. Backwards inverted is the opposite of normal flight. Seems you need more yaw and less aileron

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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11-27-2007 03:29 AM  9 years agoPost 12
Jon the Rooster

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Johns Island, Charleston, SC

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I'm looking for that golden nugget of info to focus on
Like you, I looked for the best info,but,,, We all have to learn our own way. You have the same sim I have & I spent at least 4 hrs of solid crashing time before it sunk in my head! I'm now at probally 16 more hrs & doing well. Ready for the real thing.

I Started with nose in Inverted & backed away straight,,,then the Dreaded Turns!!

Stick to it!! It's alot more fun to fly when your never out of your comfort zone!!

and one more thing "DON'T BE AFRAID!"

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11-27-2007 04:11 AM  9 years agoPost 13
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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The cool thing is once you get it, inverted taildown funnels are just a tad more difficult.

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11-27-2007 04:35 AM  9 years agoPost 14
ZXXflyer

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stone mountain, georgia, US

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I find that I freez on the rudder instead of the aileron. I start the turn fine, but when I am exiting I keep on the rudder.

Believer in Weston motors!

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11-27-2007 09:51 AM  9 years agoPost 15
Futura57

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UK

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Thanks all. The responses thus far give me plenty to go on...

I will look to see if Reflex will allow me to restart from nose-in inverted to save setup time so I can concentrate on the manoeuvre.

Ok, so thumbs move together, fair enough I accept that. The alien part is moving opposite to the turn. I guess this will come with familiarity.

Leading turns with the rudder is all well and good, but it's reversed! That said, there might be some logic to this in so far as I should think what to do with the rudder first (as I do with upright backwards flight), then the aileron thumb just follows (ish). This got me wondering if it's worth looking at the canopy rather than the boom, because to turn left you move the canopy right. Any thoughts?

It may be easy for some, but that doesn't help me I was hoping that learning parrot fashion would get me started until intuition took over. I'm thinking there is no simple rule for this one.

I should probably begin just by aiming to fly straight and level. I think Reflex allows me to fix some controls. That way I can bag the elevator and pitch, then think about turns after.

Starting up high is something I will definitely do when I try this for real, but on the Sim I'm more comfortable low down where I can better see the consequences of my inputs. For now I will put up with the 10 second flights.

I think that spending just a few minutes each day is gold-plated advice, then do something else. I remember when learning inverted I spent so much time doing it, I started crashing when hovering upright (on the Sim)! I guess it comes down to patience and belief that I will get there.

Further suggestions welcome.

Hardware eventually fails - Software eventually works!

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11-27-2007 10:10 AM  9 years agoPost 16
Droid

rrElite Veteran

Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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I think the problem is overcorrecting with aileron and not using enough Yaw. Backwards inverted is the opposite of normal flight. Seems you need more yaw and less aileron
I think Tony nailed it with this statement, demands on the tailrotor system are high, a top end gyro and servo will make a difference here. My numerous failed attempts at backwards inverted are from practising forwards inverted too much, i keep pushing the sticks together and apart instead of the same way, however the one day i did manage a half decent circuit it turned into a rolling backward circuit with too much aileron!!

Practice but don't hang up on it, one day these things just click

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11-27-2007 10:32 AM  9 years agoPost 17
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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Thx

I can do backwards inverted figure 8's now... not very precise but I'm doing them without crashing

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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11-27-2007 03:45 PM  9 years agoPost 18
Futura57

rrApprentice

UK

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Ok, yaw seems to be the main turning control, with aileron playing a back up roll I guess it depends upon how flat your turns are. Since I will be doing it all very very slow to begin with then yaw it is.

Hardware eventually fails - Software eventually works!

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11-27-2007 04:26 PM  9 years agoPost 19
tchavei

rrProfessor

Portugal

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One nice thing as already pointed out is that inverted tail down pie dishes are just a step away... I even managed to do some on the sim the other day...

One curious thing is that there arn't many pilots out there doing tail up normal pie dishes which look pretty cool and are fairly easy to do if you can do circuits.

Tony


--------------------
"Perfection and patience usually walk side by side..."

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11-27-2007 06:48 PM  9 years agoPost 20
Droid

rrElite Veteran

Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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One of my favourite manouvers

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Learning inverted backwards flight
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