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HelicopterOff Topics › Possible Stem Cell good news.
11-30-2007 01:53 PM  10 years agoPost 141
MattJen

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UK

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ok come on then

what is your religion ??
Baptist, JW,Catholic, universal life church? as your cert says

[quote]because you clearly can't even understand the stuff you post.

i fully understand the stuff i post, i have given reasons for why i believe what i do, you havent given one reason whats so ever as to why you believe,,

i said near the beginning of when i enterd this thread
[B]i will always be against abortion, having lost childeren and watched the fight to save childeren, unless you have ever been in the same predicament i doubt you will ever understand my passion for saving the life of an unborne wether it be a ball of cells or a fully formed fouetus... we can debate it all day but you will have a different understanding and i will never have your outlook on it either.
So as said i agree to disagree and let the future decide who was right...

thats how i left it,

all you have said "i am right you are wrong" cos the issue cannot be explained simply...

The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead!!

All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:59 PM  10 years agoPost 142
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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MattJen's "opinion"
In regards to the fertilised embryo - it is a life form - period
...
so even at this simplistic level it does have a brain, althogh not as big as ours or as complex, as soon as that sperm cell joins with the egg life begins, it is simple...

So to say it is not life is wrong.. cos it is,
The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead!!
You want to compare credentials now!? I was issued a new patent yesterday. My 25th. Remind me again - you're a sales manager - right?

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11-30-2007 02:05 PM  10 years agoPost 143
MattJen

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no not now,

i was but gave it up, i am going back into being a baker cos i really loved it a lot. and with my kids becoming more difficult home as thier Autism becomes more pronounced as they get older i need to look for part time work... as i sit in one of my sons classes to help him and assist the teacher.

I was a sales manager for a soft drinks company..

nothing proffesional at all, no degrees, no HND,No HNC, just a simple city and guilds qualification and a recognised qualification in British Sign Language, as they often use sign language over here to talk to Autistic childeren.hence the reason i went into it,
and of course my ABPI -which allows me to sell medical and pharmeceuticals to Doctors and Surgeons.which i had to have when i sold a chemical called Hibbiscrub, and regent biogel, and tisept, unisept, and other medical supplies.. i had 2 yrs to pass it..

yes you are a lot more intelligent than me, on paper,

All The Best

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11-30-2007 02:17 PM  10 years agoPost 144
MattJen

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going back the thread,

i do feel it is wrong to say it is not a life form, when clearly it is... that is how i feel, that is what expereience has shaped me to think...

In those comments posted there there is nothing that is condescending at all, i have stated my opinion which is a very strong one, and i have given clear evidence and facts as to why i have felt that way, something which you keep ignoring..

all that is left is for people to say ya or neigh, all you had to say "matt i can understand why you feel the way you do, but i still think you are wrong"

instead you have turned it into a personal post against me all cos i said the word PERIOD and WRONG


i stand by comments and anyone with a brain can and will see why i think that..and i have not decried anyone else for thier opinion..

All The Best

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11-30-2007 03:49 PM  10 years agoPost 145
spork

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and i have not decried anyone else for thier opinion..
Nor have I. Only those that think their opinion rises to the level of fact. Several on here have said "I believe X - that is my opinion", and I have said "great - that's a perfectly valid opinion". If you're telling me your strongly held belief that a human life begins at conception is an opinion - great. If you've felt that way all along I apologise for misunderstanding the strength of your conviction for something more than it was.

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11-30-2007 05:26 PM  10 years agoPost 146
MattJen

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UK

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thanks sporc

now we agree, and i apologise to you for any offence i have caused..

If you're telling me your strongly held belief that a human life begins at conception is an opinion - great

that is my belief and my opinion and was never meant to be anything more than that..

have a good weekend

matt

All The Best

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11-30-2007 05:42 PM  10 years agoPost 147
RonHill

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FLL, FL

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Bad Karma

Not really, before the age of science I bet if you asked a religious person that question the answer would be very different to now during the age of science.
Not necessarily. Einstein was maybe one of the greatest scientific minds of this century and he believed in God.

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11-30-2007 05:54 PM  10 years agoPost 148
spork

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Don't be so sure of that. Einstein has famous quotes such as "God does not play dice", but when asked point blank, has said that he doesn't believe in a god in the sense that any organized religion does.

Einstein said:

“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

“My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls."

“The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve.”

“It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly."

“I am a deeply religious nonbeliever.… This is a somewhat new kind of religion.”

“I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.”

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11-30-2007 05:54 PM  10 years agoPost 149
MattJen

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So as this debate continues

Do you think we need legislation, if it doesnt exist already,
make that decison as to when life begins ? and as we have seen from this thread, how wold they come to that decision ?

In regards to the stem cell, i did not know it owld be taken from other sources, where else do they grow take them from ?

Matt

All The Best

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11-30-2007 05:56 PM  10 years agoPost 150
spog

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Einstein may have believed in God but he certainly was not religious.
About God, I cannot accept any concept based on the authority of the Church. As long as I can remember, I have resented mass indocrination. I do not believe in the fear of life, in the fear of death, in blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him, I would be a liar. I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil. My God created laws that take care of that. His universe is not ruled by wishful thinking, but by immutable laws.
Albert Einstein

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11-30-2007 06:04 PM  10 years agoPost 151
spork

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Do you think we need legislation, if it doesnt exist already,
make that decison as to when life begins ?
I'd steer clear of having legislation that "defines when life begins", but I think it's prudent to have legislation to protect all humans. This would involve a certain implication as to what constitutes a human life for practical reasons. For example, I think it's reasonable to say that abortion in perhaps the 2nd or 3rd trimester should be illegal except in cases in which the mother's life is in immediate danger.

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11-30-2007 06:12 PM  10 years agoPost 152
scatbass

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The big thing that needs to be seperated here is FACT versus OPINION, as well as the ability to recognize the difference between the two.

Trying to say that "life starts at different points depending on your beliefs" is a bad statement. A better way of phrasing it would be "depending on your beliefs you will have a different perception of when life starts". This does not make it FACT though, which is what I've been trying to point out all along. Life starts at a certain point.

Look at it this way...science knows the earth is betweek X and Y years old. I'm not a geologist, but I recognize that applying different principals will yield slightly different results, depending on the way an experiment is carried out and what is accepted as fact at that time. If one result states that the earth is 100 years old, and the other result states that the earth is 200 years old...well, they are obviously not both correct, and they are possibly both incorrect. Do you not recognize that that is the case here? If a Catholic states that life begins at the moment of conception, and an athiest states that it begins at the moment the umbilical cord is cut...well, they can not both be factually correct. They are both entitled to their opinions and beliefs, but they can not both be right.

Looking at it from a purely scientific standpoint...the Catholics have it right.

Research Michael Tooley and check out his beliefs on when life begins. Think infanticide is the stuff fiction is made of? That's what they said about abortion a long long time ago...



Mike

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11-30-2007 10:02 PM  10 years agoPost 153
spork

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Trying to say that "life starts at different points depending on your beliefs" is a bad statement. A better way of phrasing it would be "depending on your beliefs you will have a different perception of when life starts". This does not make it FACT though, which is what I've been trying to point out all along. Life starts at a certain point.
I agree completely that it's important to separate fact from opinion. I think we're actually all in agreement on that. What I'm not so sure of is the notion that there is any such thing as "right" when it comes to "when is it a human life?".

I think the same can be said for how old the world is. It didn't just poof into existence. At what point would you call it earth?

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11-30-2007 10:22 PM  10 years agoPost 154
Havoc

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Ky.

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I don't know if life starts at conception but the biological contract has been signed by then. But I also know a few kids who should have been aborted. So I think we should wait until the baby is born and see how it turns out. Then if it eggs my car, kill it. And that would be legal because you can't sign a legally binding contract until you are eighteen.

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11-30-2007 11:56 PM  10 years agoPost 155
Bad Karma

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Earlier I mentioned that I believe that the best point to consider it a human life is when the nervous system and brain starts to develop.

Life, in general terms does start at the moment of conception, but I dont agree that it counts as a human life at that point, only when there is the possibility of some level of consiousness would I consider it to have become a human, before that point its a bunch of cells with human DNA, but not a person IMO.

Once that point is reached IMO it should be completely illegal to abort it, except in one situation, that of being pregnant putting the mothers life at risk.

These are only my opinions on it, nothing more.

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12-01-2007 12:17 AM  10 years agoPost 156
spog

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Had a few beers Havoc?

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12-01-2007 12:29 AM  10 years agoPost 157
spork

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Mountain View, CA

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Life, in general terms does start at the moment of conception, but I dont agree that it counts as a human life at that point,
I think both the egg and sperm are already living organisms. So life starts when they're formed. But I agree it's much tougher to say when there is a "human life". I think it's purely a judgement call. I've dated a couple of girls that would probably just barely meet the definition.

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12-01-2007 12:56 AM  10 years agoPost 158
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Big Coppitt Key, FL

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You guys are pathetic -- life begins when you fly your first RC heli and not a moment before.

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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12-01-2007 12:58 AM  10 years agoPost 159
spork

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You guys are pathetic -- life begins when you fly your first RC heli and not a moment before.
Nope. That's just when you are to be considered "viable"

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HelicopterOff Topics › Possible Stem Cell good news.
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