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HelicopterOff Topics › Possible Stem Cell good news.
11-30-2007 01:38 AM  10 years agoPost 121
MattJen

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UK

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well
i have to say this has been one of the most interesting threads i have ever had the interest to post in.

i feel these debates will go on and one day we may look back with either regret we did not do more to stop it or we may look back with a sense of glee as we reach immortality.

All i can say it is gonna be fun to see how the future does end up!!

Has been enjoyable

Matt

ps - SPORK apart from your really anoying habit of only copying certain parts of my posts which take it really out of context,
i will always be against abortion, having lost childeren and watched the fight to save childeren, unless you have ever been in the same predicament i doubt you will ever understand my passion for saving the life of an unborne wether it be a ball of cells or a fully formed fouetus... we can debate it all day but you will have a different understanding and i will never have your outlook on it either..

So as said i agree to disagree and let the future decide who was right...

As to your comments about my kids having the odds stacked against them cos of me as their father - that was unkind, and as you have never been a father and according to your own comments never will i dont see how you can comment on that, i respected your opinion, i just felt you had no grounds to say it as you are not a parent, so there is no way you can understand from my perspective as a parent who has been through it all and fought to save childs life.

In regards to your comments about medical school i studied for the ABPI exam and passed, i was never scared to challenge if i really believed it was wrong, and as said if i trusted and followed what the doctors said in regards to two of my sons well it justs proves they can be wrong. They pressured my wife to abort, but both of us were united together, and stood against them, cos it was a life and something preciouse.. and i have 2 kids to prove it was worth fighting for, something you will never understand or can be explained in any science text book...

Also i know you fly full size - i read your profile, the comment was used to say just cos you read and research and form opinions, without experience, that knowledge is nothing... it is the application of that knowledge in the field which makes it valuable, for i have learnt theory wise loads on flying aircraft, but it is nothing without experience, hence the reason you fly in the sim then go and apply that knowledge in the field so to speak..

There was nothing condescending, you took offence at that, cos i was right in what i was saying, you really cannot debate this subject with any authority cos you have never had the experience of bringing a child into the world, something which you conveniently forget and never attack me about..so to you an embryo will always be a comodity not a life form, if i had no kids i would probably be the same,

All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:51 AM  10 years agoPost 122
RonHill

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spork

Of course. Is this your first step in a debate using the Socratic method that's supposed to paint me into a corner? Good luck.
Well, there is no reason to wish me luck. You have admitted you don't know the answer....

So, when do YOU consider an embryo a life?
(1) has a metabolism
(2) grows
(3) can reproduce at some stage of its normal life process
(4) has a complete and unique set of DNA
(5) its DNA is human
A sperm or an egg do not satisfy all those conditions, so it's difficult to define them as a human life. Your wording is confusing
Uh, which are not correct for an embryo?

tarro
I would save the 1 day old but I would feel a sense of lose for not saving the 80 year old.
Thats the same way I, and others, feel about the embryo.

Now to really mess with your minds. I support abortion rights. Last thing we need is overpopulation and children that cannot be supported.

But I do understand the anti abortion groups reasons....I agree with their reasons, but don't think it is my place to make them live in the way I decide. If there is a god...Then they will have to answer to him, not me.

But, thats one reason this news is so great....It *almost* makes this debate pointless.

Interesting question. Someone earlier said some stuff about Bush being an idiot for not letting stem cell research happen before now....

The question is: Do you think THIS development would have happened when it did, or at all, if not for that choice?

I think that we should allow research personally, but I don't think this breakthrough would have happened.

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11-30-2007 02:00 AM  10 years agoPost 123
MasterCrasher

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Not sure.

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When does life begin? Doesn't the answer to that have to do with what religion you follow? Isn't all life precious according to most religions? And isn't it arrogant to think one form of life is respected more then another. Why is it accepted to kill an animal for food so we can live but to kill a stem cell for a cure to disease so we can live be any different?

The answer is simple, its what we were brainwashed into believing when our heads were still soft when we were young.

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11-30-2007 02:11 AM  10 years agoPost 124
MattJen

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Ron And Master,

You both speak sense, yes we are what our upbringing is, but also having childeren adds that emotional equasion to the debate.

Spork just tears posts apart and takes them out of context..

I hope he is not that unyielding and argumentative in the cockpit

What no one has mentioned here, at all in any of the posts,
is rather than over populate the world with childeren as someone said, why are we not educating people to take responsibility for their actions, if they want to have sex then they should take the consequences for their actions, it seems that in this world we blame everyone but ourselves,

I used to sell Durex and other forms of contraception which involved attending family planning clinics,sex education lessons at schools,
i used to sell them into the hospitals and private sector,

the scariest thing which opened my eyes to the world was kids as young as 12 were having sex, my first question what on earth are these girls and boys being taught, " well if you get up the duff, you can always have an abortion" having spoken to people who have had that done and who are now in their late 20's, the guilt and the memories of doing that is something they regret and will regret for the rest of their lives, one girl said to me "Matt the best form of contraception when you are young is abstenance, and to wait till you are old enough to understand the responsibility"

obviously there are exceptions to the rule...

I wonder what parents teach their kids these days, again some blame everyone but themselves, i have heard preants say it is the schools responsiblity, it is the goverments responsibility, blame blame blame, education begins at home..

that may seem very old fashion by todays standards, but it is something i have to say i can see the wisdom in.. becuae this debate on abortions and when life starts would be non existent..

But i have found it interesting..

matt

All The Best

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11-30-2007 02:22 AM  10 years agoPost 125
spork

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SPORK apart from your really anoying habit of only copying certain parts of my posts which take it really out of context...
I've tried very hard to respond point by point to your posts. Please feel free to tell me what assertions you'd like me to respond to, and I'll do so in their full context.
So as said i agree to disagree and let the future decide who was right...
As long as we agree about what the disagreement is about. I claim the subject is complex and personal. You say you have the simple answer that is to be applied to everyone. No need to let them have opinions. We can agree to disagree about that.
As to your comments about my kids having the odds stacked against them cos of me as their father - that was unkind
Sorry, you can't treat me with complete disrespect, tell me you hope your kids grow up to show others respect, and hope for me not to comment.
There was nothing condescending, you took offence at that, cos i was right...
Nothing more fun than a statement that contradicts itself. Can you not see how even that statement is condescending!?
you really cannot debate this subject with any authority cos you have never had the experience of bringing a child into the world
Bull****!
something which you conveniently forget and never attack me about..
Sorry, I don't even understand what you're saying here. You want me to attack you for having brought children into the world. Well, unlike you I'm willing to let you make your own choices.
so to you an embryo will always be a comodity not a life form
It's good to see that you know everything for everyone - including my state of mind. You are the most condescending person I've had the pleasure of debating.
Well, there is no reason to wish me luck. You have admitted you don't know the answer....
Yes, but apparently you all seek to prove me wrong about this not being a simple question that defies a simple answer. We will have made progress when you also admit there IS not simple answer.
A sperm or an egg do not satisfy all those conditions...
Who gives a crap? Who's criteria are those?
Spork just tears posts apart and takes them out of context..
I've taken nothing out of context, and I'm not tearing apart posts. I'm pounding on the unrelenting closed-mindedness that allows you to answer for everyone a complex question that you're not in any position to answer for them.

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11-30-2007 02:33 AM  10 years agoPost 126
MattJen

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SPORK

you really are an arrogant condescending person who is argumentative ,
Sorry, you can't treat me with complete disrespect, tell me you hope your kids grow up to show others respect, and hope for me not to comment.

what was disrespectful ?????

[quote]you really cannot debate this subject with any authority cos you have never had the experience of bringing a child into the world
Bull****!

No it is not bull, how can you comment when you have no experience whats so ever on bringing a child into the world or seeng people fight to save one ?????? ANSWER THE QUESTION INSTEAD OF GETTING ARSEY.

There was nothing condescending, you took offence at that, cos i was right...
Nothing more fun than a statement that contradicts itself. Can you not see how even that statement is condescending!?

Once again a post taken out of context, there was nothing condescending, i was staing fact, you dont have kids, dont want kids, so you have no emotional attachement to kids, what is condescending about that ??????

so to you an embryo will always be a comodity not a life form
It's good to see that you know everything for everyone - including my state of mind. You are the most condescending person I've had the pleasure of debating.

once again you took it out of context, and not read the entire comment, without the experience of bringing up a child and having that understanding of having to fight to save a life at a 9 weeks,
you have no understanding and speak from a lack of experience...
your comments showed you have no time for kids, dont want them, never wanted them which i respect,so to enter a debate of when is life life when it comes to an embryo , when you have no time or inclination for kids and never will seems to be a contradiction

A sperm or an egg do not satisfy all those conditions...
Who gives a crap? Who's criteria are those?

now who is being agressive and condescending, who ever disagrees with you, you put down, the people who give a crap are those that have childeren something you will never understand... EVER EVER EVER,

your attitude is really aggressive,from your posts here and other forums it seems you have not one ounce of emotion in you, were you wronged in a prev life ???

I'm pounding on the unrelenting closed-mindedness that allows you to answer for everyone a complex question that you're not in any position to answer for them.

there you go again, i am not a closed mind, i have already stated i am not oposed to progress, the comments have been my opinion,i am not answering for anyone, i am just adding another side to the argument, from someone who is a parent, adds to a more rounded out debate when all sides are represented,

everyone a complex question that you're not in any position to answer for them.[/

so being a parent counts for nothing in a debate about life of an unborn baby ? having seen your wife go through distress of loosing 4 babies counts for nothing having to fight to save 2 of my childeren against an establishment that thinks otherwise
counts for nothing briging up 2 disabled childeren who are alive cos as parents we fought to save them counts for nothing in a debate which is about aborting embryo's as soon they are fertilised if anyone is in a position not to answer it is you!!!!!

you have no kids you have absolutly no idea at all, just angry posts,
which dont add to the debate at all, and that is what is getting on your pecks, cos i can post statements to which you cannot answer with any understanding or argue with any authority cos you dont have experience.. and you argue with back at me saying i am condescending, i reliterate the point it is a debate about babies, when are they considerd a life form, your arguments are flawed cos you speak from someone who has and never will have a child..
and that is why you comeback with comments like who gives a crap, you wouldif you were a parent...

just like there is no way i would argue with you on full size aircraft, cos i have no experience... of flying full size solo..

back to the subject, in hand

When is life life,

All The Best

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11-30-2007 03:20 AM  10 years agoPost 127
spork

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you really are an arrogant condescending person who is argumentative ,
Gosh, it must be like looking in a friggin' mirror.
how can you comment when you have no experience whats so ever on bringing a child into the world or seeng people fight to save one ?????? ANSWER THE QUESTION INSTEAD OF GETTING ARSEY.
Wow - all caps. I better answer the question - for the 10th time.

First of all, having children does not put you ahead of me or anyone else when it comes to the question of deterimining what is a human life. It's that simple. That's your answer. Don't ask again.

But... that's not the question. I'm not telling you when life begins. I'm just telling you not to be a condescending, closed-minded prick that thinks he gets to make these weighty decisions for the rest of the world.
i was staing fact, you dont have kids, dont want kids...
Once again making up facts for everyone else. You don't have a f*cking clue whether I want kids or not.
your comments showed you have no time for kids, dont want them, never wanted them...
Wow, for someone that claims I take everything out of context (which is pure bull****), you just plain make up facts. There is not a word on this forum or any other that suggests I don't have time for kids, don't want them, never wanted them...

I think it's worth pointing out that showing your flawed logic for what it is does not constitute taking you out of context. That seems to be your sole response to any valid point made.

I'm sorry, you're just plain too logic challenged, hard of thinking, and closed-minded to warrant any more of my time.

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11-30-2007 03:54 AM  10 years agoPost 128
RonHill

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spork

Yes, but apparently you all seek to prove me wrong about this not being a simple question that defies a simple answer. We will have made progress when you also admit there IS not simple answer.
When have *I* said there was a simple answer?

My second post this thread :"However, I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me....some have no problems with either, and some have problems with just one."

To another poster. They said: "Remember, there is only one real truth, and only one absolute set of right and wrong, in the end".

*I* replied: "That is up for debate. I take it you are religious? What makes your religion better or more right than another? See, it gets tricky when we assume only our views are correct."

Another post from me :"No, that is simple political correctness BS. The duck is only one color. But we are not talking about something as simple as a basic color....The question of when does life start is really complex. And there are different answers depending on who we listen to...Theologians and scientists are not going to agree.

Personally I think it begins at conception...However, I will admit that my view may not be correct. I could give my reasons, but that does not mean I am correct."

So I don't know why you are being combative with me.
A sperm or an egg do not satisfy all those conditions...
Who gives a crap? Who's criteria are those?
Sorry, I confused you and spog on that one.

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11-30-2007 04:03 AM  10 years agoPost 129
MasterCrasher

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Not sure.

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Life begins the day you decide to put your heli up side down.

Sorry, you guys are getting to serious for me.

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11-30-2007 04:13 AM  10 years agoPost 130
spork

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When have *I* said there was a simple answer?
Apparently you have not. I apologize for dragging you into the drama this has become.

For the record (not directed at you Ron)....

My point is simply this:

- Not everyone in the world agrees on the instant a human life becomes a human life.
- Even the scientists, philosophers, theologians, and lawmakers struggle with this question.
- Until we reach world concensus I feel it's justified for people to form their own opinions on the issue.
- It is completely beyond me how some people feel they get to force their opinion on others in this matter.

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11-30-2007 09:28 AM  10 years agoPost 131
MattJen

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[quote]Good theory, but I don't have kids. Never had, never will. Never got anyone pregnant either.

your comment was -----
Once again making up facts for everyone else. You don't have a f*cking clue whether I want kids or not.
---------------------------------
that wasnt a made up fact, it was a comment based on your post, and that is why you have got so angry with me and now swearing, and accusing me of being condescending, cos i have a hit a raw nerve...

If you are gona say comments like that in a debate which is about whenb life starts in an embyro, you gonna have to accept that people will pick up on it, as this debate is about when life starts. And people who have kids are gonna be more emotive on asubject about it, you dont seem to get that point.... and for some reason you picked me out and have bullied me with your posts yet others have disagreed with you....

this question of when life begins is going to vary from person to another which i clearly accept and respect, for some reason you take humbridge at it....

I have not put my feelings down to say this is the right way and only way, we live on a free planet where people can express their opinions... that is what makes this fun....

it is you that has become closed mindined, as your posts reflect,

[quote]that's not the question. I'm not telling you when life begins. I'm just telling you not to be a condescending, closed-minded prick that thinks he gets to make these weighty decisions for the rest of the world.

for a man who follows a book that is supposed to set out how a person should live his life and be godly in all apsects of his life you sure are a hypocrite..
i would hate to be in your church or listen to your sermons if that is your attitude to anyone who questions you, in fact considering you are a man of the cloth you do nothing emulate the person you are supposed to be following, you call me close minded..
i take it your ministry certificate in your profile was just naother accredation to obtain, cos it certianly hasnt affected your outlook or personality,,
probably your religion teaches abstenance which is why you are such a grumpy old sod, go and get your leg over this weekend it might liven you up

have a good day

matt

All The Best

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11-30-2007 10:49 AM  10 years agoPost 132
Bad Karma

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When does life begin? Doesn't the answer to that have to do with what religion you follow?
Not really, before the age of science I bet if you asked a religious person that question the answer would be very different to now during the age of science.

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11-30-2007 11:51 AM  10 years agoPost 133
MattJen

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BadKarma

yes it does, and even those who dont belong to organised religion will have a belief.

Also a persons decisions and opinions will often be shaped by their experiences - and as everyone on this thread is different there will be no right/wrong answer to this question..

i look at it with different eyes cos i am a parent, and have had to go through an awful lot to be parent, so my view on it is very different someone who has no kids.

I accept that and respect it...

My opinion is Life begins as soon as it become fertilised,as in my opinion it takes on a different identity and becomes more than a single cell.
but i clearly accpet like RON that this may be disproved further down the line.. and i may also be wrong, but that is what i believe at this current time..

All The Best

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11-30-2007 12:55 PM  10 years agoPost 134
spork

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Your comment was -----
Once again making up facts for everyone else. You don't have a f*cking clue whether I want kids or not.
---------------------------------
that wasnt a made up fact, it was a comment based on your post,
WHAT wasn't a made up fact? You didn't post your made up fact. You claimed I didn't have time for kids and didn't want them. You're now clearly ignoring your own comments just to piss me off.

I had become aware of your limited mental capacity, but I hadn't realized until now you're a liar.
and that is why you have got so angry with me
What you're detecting is frustration at raw stupidity.
this question of when life begins is going to vary from person to another...
Thank you for finally admitting that I'm right and you're wrong. Say what you want from here on out, but anyone can look back over this thread and clearly see that's the only argument I've ever made.
...which i clearly accept and respect,
A backpeddling lie - plain and simple.
for a man who follows a book that is supposed to set out how a person should live his life and be godly in all apsects of his life you sure are a hypocrite..
It's just astonishing the rate at which you introduce new facts that are purely manufactured in your head. Tell me what book it is that I supposedly follow nitwit. You can't call me a hypocrite unless I go against things I've said - which I haven't.
in fact considering you are a man of the cloth you do nothing emulate the person you are supposed to be following, you call me close minded..
Now we're just down to pure stupid. You don't know who I'm supposed to be following any more than you know for a fact the instant at which a human life begins.
probably your religion teaches abstenance
You could take the simple approach and ask what religion I am. Or you could make up facts for me and then attack those facts that you made up. The latter approach has been consistent with every post you've made so far.
which is why you are such a grumpy old sod, go and get your leg over this weekend it might liven you up
Since you've clearly been going through my gallery and making up a whole fantasy life for me, you've also seen my wife. Post a picture of the scary chick that married you and we'll see who has a reason to be pissed off.

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11-30-2007 01:30 PM  10 years agoPost 135
MattJen

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All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:34 PM  10 years agoPost 136
MattJen

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[quote]Thank you for finally admitting that I'm right and you're wrong.

who is being arrogant and condesecending, if anyone you complete idot, looks back through theposts i have made

they can clearly see i have a strong opinion on what i believe and the reaosns which i clearly explain why i believe what i do, i have not put people down, when your comments above just sum up all of your posts...

you really are a nasty piece of work.. it is a very good job you do not have kids, cos if they turn out to be fraction of what you are like on a public forum, then this world will be a sadder place..

cos of religuos freaks like you!!! who's way is the only right way
[quote][quote]Thank you for finally admitting that I'm right and you're wrong.

that quote from a man of religion really sums what a load of rubbish it really is, intolerance of anyone but their own belief...

Your lift really does not go to the top does does it?

All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:41 PM  10 years agoPost 137
spork

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MattJen's "opinion"
In regards to the fertilised embryo - it is a life form - period
...
so even at this simplistic level it does have a brain, althogh not as big as ours or as complex, as soon as that sperm cell joins with the egg life begins, it is simple...

So to say it is not life is wrong.. cos it is,
that quote from a man of religion really sums what a load of rubbish it really is, intolerance of anyone but their own belief...
You continue to make bizarre assumptions about my religion. That makes you a fool - plain and simple.

I find your last statement particularly ironic (or just plain pathetic) in that I've clearly been arguing all along that people should be allowed their own opinions. You've finally come to realize you'd better do the same for fear of looking even more closed minded.
it is a very good job you do not have kids, cos if they turn out to be fraction of what you are like on a public forum, then this world will be a sadder place..
You really want to drag kids into it!? From where you stand that's a poor idea. Just say the word.

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11-30-2007 01:45 PM  10 years agoPost 138
MattJen

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thats right.
that is my opinion, and if you go onto other posts you will see why i think that way ---

cos my wife lost 4 childeren, we had to fight to save my other 2 childeren,

that is why i think the way i do, to me it is life form from the time the egg is fertlised,

BADKARMA doesnt think so, have i posted something against him ??? no i respect his opinion, the only person here who has got on their high horse is YOU

i have not put anyone down for saying otherwise, i havent called them a P*ick, or any other offesive name, or made comments that their wife is scary,,, for all you know my wife could be hospital with a seriouse illenss, which would make your comments really offensive...

All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:48 PM  10 years agoPost 139
MattJen

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ps

i know what your religion is - you have a certificate in your gallery, and i have researched it on the net, so i can understand why you post the stuff you do...

All The Best

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11-30-2007 01:48 PM  10 years agoPost 140
spork

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...or made comments that their wife is scary,,, for all you know my wife could be hospital with a seriouse illenss,
Perhaps. But I suspect she'd still be scary.
i know what your religion is - you have a certificate in your gallery, and i have researched it on the net, so i can understand why you post the stuff you do...
You most definitely don't know what my religion is. And you can't possibly know why I post "the stuff I do" because you clearly can't even understand the stuff you post.

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