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HelicopterOff Topics › Possible Stem Cell good news.
11-29-2007 04:18 PM  9 years agoPost 81
MattJen

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Anyway keep religion keep religion out of it

back to the debate on Abortion

Interesting thread this has been, i used to do tours around the british museum in particular the Holy land and early new testament, from Egypt up to modern day Judaism..

One thing i did notice under the Mosaic law which the jewish faith adhered to meticulosly, was if a man got into a fight and accidently injured a woman who was pregnant and she ended up loosing the feooutus he had to pay for that with his life, showing how serious life was taken in the ancient world...

Even if one does not belive in God or some other high authority we as humans do seem to have this in built moral code - all of us konw pre medditated Murder is wrong - yet we can dilute that moral code when it comes to a life that has no say..

Just for thought.

it is also what turns my stomach is how they abort the babies,i expect most dont know the procedures, but would be horrifed if they did..

Matt

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11-29-2007 04:29 PM  9 years agoPost 82
spork

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all of us konw pre medditated Murder is wrong - yet we can dilute that moral code when it comes to a life that has no say..
Again you're presuming that a fertilized egg is a human life. No one with any sense argues that murder is OK at any stage. The argument relates to when life begins. Either engage in that argument or watch from the sidelines. The argument you're trying to have (that some people are advocating murder) simply doesn't exist.

I find it entertaining and ironic that your tag-line suggests putting your mother-in-law in the electric chair - and yes, I realize it's a joke.

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11-29-2007 04:33 PM  9 years agoPost 83
MattJen

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well it is a life, although simplistic at this stage.. ( we recognise the Amoeba - 1 cell micro organism as life )

In stem stells, it needs a fertislised egg ? ie one that has started to form,? as the stem cells are one of the first things to form. so it is a life form all be it in a simple one...

To add also, i remember at medical school disecting a cell, it was likend to a minature city, when the egg becomes fertilised all the information is there, and the plans and the foundation, just because it hasnt grown doesnt change the fact it is a life form..

And if science can get so excited about a 1 cell organism calling it LIFE from which all complex life forms evolved, what is the difference here >

Matt

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11-29-2007 04:40 PM  9 years agoPost 84
scatbass

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Regarding abortion..The bottom line as I pointed out in a different thread (I think) is that there cannot be more than one truth. I know that really hurts a lot of peoples feelings and all, but the fact of the matter is that either life begins at conception...or it begins at another time. Just because one person believes one way and another believes a different way does not make them both right....guess what, at least one of them is wrong!!

So focus on the big but difficult question...when does life begin? To start with, I think most rational people would have to agree that life either is or it isn't...meaning that it's not possible to be "50% of a life at this stage...and then we become 80% of a full life"...etc etc. There is a specific moment in time when "presto, this IS 100% life".

Let's start there.

BTW...regarding the original topic of stem cells...I think the kneejerk reaction comment is very true, and I think that most orginazations that oppose stem cell research are actually opposed to EMBRYONIC stem cell research....most, if not all, are OK with stem cell research, as long as the stem cells were not obtained by a method that, in the eyes of said organization, compromises another life..ie, abortion.

So...at what moment does life begin?



Mike

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11-29-2007 04:42 PM  9 years agoPost 85
Shoego Heli

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Here in San Diego there are a few pharmaceutical companies that do work on stem cell research, I have worked in many of those labs along with the scientists and it is very interesting to see that many of these scientists go about their research without the arguements of religion, politics, morals, ect. I see that this alows THEM to reach their goal in trying break through how the stem cells are acquired, stored and used to discover.

With that premise it takes out the problems that we see out in the world and on this post as to what to do with this new knowledge. All those issues are left to someone else to delve into.

There is a great responsibility with the handling of these cells and I can tell you that even as a worker in these labs there is a lot of security involved that only lets certain levels of people into certain labs. This involves an electronic key that is infront of any laboratory door and these electronic keys are closely monitored in the security room of every facility.

Having my heli: Cool, Having a working heli: Awesome, Having a day to fly: PRICELESS!

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11-29-2007 04:50 PM  9 years agoPost 86
tarro

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No one with any sense argues that murder is OK at any stage.
LOL yea right, Gov't do it everyday.
The bottom line is if MEN got pregnant abortion clinics would serve beer and have dart boards and we all know it.

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11-29-2007 04:56 PM  9 years agoPost 87
spork

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well it is a life, although simplistic at this stage.. ( we recognise the Amoeba - 1 cell micro organism as life )
You're talking about the difference between life and human life. If you wish to recognize the amoeba as life doesn't that mean that we should never be able to murder an amoeba? By your definition even the unfertilized egg is life, but it's not a human life.
just because it hasnt grown doesnt change the fact it is a life form..
Right. Just like the sacred amoeba. Or are we talking about something that has the potential to become a human life?
Regarding abortion..The bottom line as I pointed out in a different thread (I think) is that there cannot be more than one truth. I know that really hurts a lot of peoples feelings and all, but the fact of the matter is that either life begins at conception...or it begins at another time.
Actually what you "pointed out" before is that life either begins at conception or at birth. And I pointed out that you're wrong. You are in the rare minority if you think the question is such a simple black and white issue.

When Toyota is building a car, when does it become "a car"? When the raw materials are delivered? When they've been assembled on the line? Not until the paint is dry...?

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11-29-2007 04:57 PM  9 years agoPost 88
tarro

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There is a great responsibility with the handling of these cells and I can tell you that even as a worker in these labs there is a lot of security involved that only lets certain levels of people into certain labs.
Yea thats to stop Industrial espionage, if there was a way to weaponise stem cells believe me Bushco would fund the research.

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11-29-2007 05:12 PM  9 years agoPost 89
scatbass

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By your definition even the unfertilized egg is life, but it's not a human life.
Can't argue with logic like that. What in the hell kinda life is it then? Cat? Rabbit? Martian?

Edit ... sorry, missed the UNfertilized part.



Mike

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11-29-2007 05:16 PM  9 years agoPost 90
scatbass

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When Toyota is building a car, when does it become "a car"? When the raw materials are delivered? When they've been assembled on the line? Not until the paint is dry...?
Following this logic...if I take the wheels off my car, is it still a car? What if I remove the engine? The tranny? Isn't it still a car, sans <insert part(s) here>?

What if a person has no arms...is it still a life? How about no legs as well?

The problem is that it's actually pretty simple, but for those that find it inconvienent it becomes manipulated as more complicated. Honestly, it really is black and white.

There, I pointed out that you are wrong.



Mike

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11-29-2007 05:37 PM  9 years agoPost 91
spork

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Following this logic...if I take the wheels off my car, is it still a car? What if I remove the engine? The tranny? Isn't it still a car, sans <insert part(s) here>?
Thanks for making my argument for me. I think you'd agree than once you've taken literally every piece apart you no longer have a car. But when exactly did it cease to be a car?
What if a person has no arms...is it still a life? How about no legs as well?
How about no brain? Present company excepted, I think you get my point.
The problem is that it's actually pretty simple
I know it seems that way for you.

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11-29-2007 05:51 PM  9 years agoPost 92
MattJen

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spork

even a 1 cell amoeba has a brain, thehuman cell has a brain - have you ever looked into the Human cell ?

a single cell is made up of 2oo trillion tiny groups of atoms, ( molecules)

Fancis Crick, described the single cell as a major city, the neclues or brain he descirbed as a centralized genetic government that maintains order..

so even at this simplistic level it does have a brain, althogh not as big as ours or as complex, as soon as that sperm cell joins with the egg life begins, it is simple, it is in built as to where everyting goes and the nucleus of those cell immediatly start directing which cell goes where and to achieve what purpose...

So to say it is not life is wrong.. cos it is,

as to your comment about murder an amoeba, if it was found on Mars i think it would be protected with every resource possible, it just comes down us as to how we view it, and to what level of appreciation we have for it...

Some would stamp on an Ant, others would revere it as a life form.

The point of this discussion is when does it become life, not wether it is right or wrong to kill it, from my point of view it becomes life as soon as the egg if fertilised... and the fact life comes from life, hence the reason we need stem cells from something living to create an alternative something to kill a disease... if that makes sense

Matt

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11-29-2007 05:58 PM  9 years agoPost 93
scatbass

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Spork

Stop answering questions with rhetoric and answer this simple question.

When does life begin?

When you've answered that to the best of your ability, consider this.

If you find it to be a complicated fuzzy non-black-and-white answer, then wouldn't it be prudent to give the benefit of the doubt...ie, innocent until proven guilty...and assume that, since we cannot decide for certain...then just say that it begins at conception? Afterall, if we cannot prove that it does NOT begin at conception, then you cannot prove that you are NOT murdering via abortion...you are admitting that it IS a possibility that abortion is murder.

On the otherhand, if it is a simple answer, then please supply it.



Mike

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11-29-2007 05:59 PM  9 years agoPost 94
spork

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even a 1 cell amoeba has a brain, thehuman cell has a brain
Again, are you suggesting we should make it illegal to "murder" an amoeba? Please answer this.
so even at this simplistic level it does have a brain, althogh not as big as ours or as complex, as soon as that sperm cell joins with the egg life begins, it is simple
Nonsense. As you yourself have pointed out, even the unfertilized egg constitutes life, and has a "brain"
as to your comment about murder an amoeba, if it was found on Mars i think it would be protected with every resource possible
So we should outlaw amoeba murder and first trimester abortion on Mars.
it just comes down us as to how we view it, and to what level of appreciation we have for it...
Thank you for finally admitting it's not a simple black and white issue that everyone should easily be able to agree on!
from my point of view it becomes life as soon as the egg if fertilised...
Well, that's one of your points of view. Your other point of view is that any living cell, such as the unfertilized egg, also constitutes life (and is therefore sacred?)

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11-29-2007 06:06 PM  9 years agoPost 95
spork

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Stop answering questions with rhetoric and answer this simple question.

When does life begin?
I'm offering reason, you're offering something even less than rhetoric.

So here's the answer to your question:

Life is not a black and white issue. Scientists haven't agreed on whether a virus is alive or not. The issue of what is a human life is even more complex and subtle.
If you find it to be a complicated fuzzy non-black-and-white answer, then wouldn't it be prudent to give the benefit of the doubt...ie, innocent until proven guilty...and assume that, since we cannot decide for certain...then just say that it begins at conception?
If we're going to give the benefit of the doubt we have to consider the sperm to be life as well. How many millions of murders have you committed this month? Remember, every sperm is sacred.

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11-29-2007 06:13 PM  9 years agoPost 96
MattJen

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Again, are you suggesting we should make it illegal to "murder" an amoeba

Spork
you fail to answer again apart from picking at threads, the argument is when does life begin ? answer the question,

Nonsense. As you yourself have pointed out, even the unfertilized egg constitutes life, and has a "brain

yes that is right - so it is life, we are talking about human life, i used the Amoeba as an example to show that even though it is simple it does a have a brain and is a form of life...i would have no problem taking a womans egg out of the womb and storing in nitrogen for a later date, cos it is just a cell...

In regards to the fertilised embryo - it is a life form - period, the question was when does it become life, well i belive once it is fertilised, it then takes on a difference which differentiates it from a normal cell...

I kill cells everyday - wheni have a shower, when i brush my hair etc,

[quote]Your other point of view is that any living cell, such as the unfertilized egg, also constitutes life (and is therefore sacred?)

no i havent said that, you can take that comment to everything, our bodies destory virsus which are living organisms, everytime you breath you star a war inside yourself...

i am saying that an egg once fertlisised is life,

But the argument which you keep circumnavigating is WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN... and all you have managed to do is just recite what people what have posted, and say it is a grey area, no it is not.. people wont accept the fact rather they try to manipulate it to fit their own agenda

WHAT DO YOU BELIVE THEN ?

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11-29-2007 06:15 PM  9 years agoPost 97
scatbass

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*sigh*
If we're going to give the benefit of the doubt we have to consider the sperm to be life as well. How many millions of murders have you committed this month? Remember, every sperm is sacred.
OK, so I have to spell out the obvious. Last time I checked, sperm doesn't grow into a new human on its own, nor does an egg (or does it...$hit, I might have millions of people living in my septic tank!!)

So we know that a sperm and en egg, apart from each other, do not grow into a human. However, when they are united under the right conditions, they do.

Do I really have to do the rest of the math here? I think you are intelligent enough to see the big picture...the problem is that you're not man enough to admit that you just might be wrong here...



Mike

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11-29-2007 06:21 PM  9 years agoPost 98
RonHill

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Spork

You're talking about the difference between life and human life. If you wish to recognize the amoeba as life doesn't that mean that we should never be able to murder an amoeba? By your definition even the unfertilized egg is life, but it's not a human life.
An UNfertilized egg, is just an egg.
A fertalized egg is the start of life. To me, that is when it changes from 'stuff' to being alive.

It is simple to me....An egg and a sperm will never turn into a human until they meet. Therefore, they are not alive. The second they meet the cells divide and start to grow; Life starts. That is why I consider life to start at conception.

Can you agree that once an sperm and egg combine that the organism starts to grow?

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11-29-2007 06:22 PM  9 years agoPost 99
MattJen

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i do think

that this debate as to when it becomes life, islife etc is just a pointless argument for some to justify killing their kids, and then carry on life with a clean concience thinking well it wanst life etc.

as i said in my post, once it becomes a fertalised egg it is a life, it takes on a different identity,

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11-29-2007 06:33 PM  9 years agoPost 100
MattJen

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[[B]quote]The bottom line is if MEN got pregnant abortion clinics would serve beer and have dart boards and we all know it.

that is funny, laughedme butt off,

it wold only take one man to get pregnant and give birth, the abortion issue wold be over within a night and sales of inflatable humans would sky rocket

matt

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