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Scorpion Power Scorpion Power
HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Plug "reading" after engine rebuild
11-26-2007 05:24 PM  9 years agoPost 41
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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What I am saying is, that I am not trying to squeeze everything out of the engine, but rather want it to work properly, and with the richer settings (low needle) it just did not.
Avi, you never answered Eric’s (Disciple) question. What carb is on your engine? Is it the standard 643?

If your gearing is right for your blades you should not be lacking for power. The engine might not run glass smooth but it should have plenty of power even during a break in.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-26-2007 09:25 PM  9 years agoPost 42
Avi

rrApprentice

Israel

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It's WA-167-1
Avi.

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11-27-2007 01:53 PM  9 years agoPost 43
FCM

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Surrey, England

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You may find you have to run different needle settings with the 167 carbi. We really need somebody here who has experience with this - Bill, are you reading this?

What I will say is that your plug looks lean but not very lean so try opening up both needles just one screw driver slot width from 1 1/4 and see how if runs. Give it some time and run at least a whole tank through, pull the plug and post a picture of it here.

The new piston rings will need some additional running time before they are fully bedded in.

Paul.

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11-27-2007 05:32 PM  9 years agoPost 44
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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It's WA-167-1
Air starvation. This carb is not big enough to feed the heli engine. You will never get the full potential out of that engine.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-28-2007 04:48 AM  9 years agoPost 45
Avi

rrApprentice

Israel

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But that's the orginal type the engine had. Would you recommend another type?

And still, even if not at peak performance, the engine should still work properly, as it used to in the past.

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11-28-2007 05:52 PM  9 years agoPost 46
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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And still, even if not at peak performance, the engine should still work properly, as it used to in the past.
Yes, the engine will work properly. But if you try to get performance because of the “lack of” by needle tweaking you will be riding a slippery slope that is always down hill. On the low end you may not detect any difference, on the high end you will. The performance that you had before could have been as a result of needle tweaking so you may never be able to get there again SAFELY.

My engine came with the 643 carb and that is what most people are advising you on. Keep that in mind.

This is a case where I think you need to bench test this engine because you are not going to get very good help from people that don’t have experience with the 167 carb. I use head loaders which gives you the ability to make adjustments and see the results on the ground. Keep good records because if you become successful you will be the expert.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-28-2007 07:06 PM  9 years agoPost 47
andrewp28

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Toronto, Ontario - Canada

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Correct settings for a 167 carb are 3/4 to 1 turn on the high needle and 1-1/8 - 1-1/4 on the low needle.

If you do a search on this site for "167 carb" you will find a lot of responses that say 7/8 high, 1-1/8 low.
My G260 with a 167A runs well at those settings with 32:1 Pennzoil.

There is much confusion in the Zenoah/Horizon manuals for these engines.
For example I would think the 644 should have the same settings as
the 643 and 645, but as you can see below: (from a thread here)

"Zenoah states"

WA-167A:
11.11 Venturi
.50mm 1st idle hole
.50mm 2nd Idle,
.50 3rd Idle
No choke assembly or primer.
Idle needle set at 1 5/8 turns open
Power Needle at 1 1/8 turns open

WT-603:
12.7mm Venturi.
15.85mm Thr. Bore
.50mm 1st idle hole,
.50mm 2nd idle
.55mm 3rd idle
Primer Assy and Choke Assy included.
Idle needle set at 1 1/2 turns open
Power Needle at 1 1/4 turns open

WT-643:
12.7mm Venturi
15.85mm Thr. Bore.
.50mm 1st idle
.50mm 2nd idle
.55mm 3rd idle.
Primer Assy but no choke assy.
Both needles preset at 1 3/8 turns open.

WT-644:
12.7mm Venturi
15.85mm Thr. Bore
.50mm 1st idle
.50mm 2nd idle
.55mm 3rd idle.
Primer Assy. and Choke Assy.
Idle needle preset at 1 5/8 turns open.
Power set at 1 turn open.

WT-645:
12.7mm Venturi
14.3mm Thr. Bore
.50mm 1st idle
.50mm 2nd idle
.55 3rd idle.
Choke Assy but no Primer.
Both Needles preset at 1 3/8 turns open.

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11-28-2007 09:45 PM  9 years agoPost 48
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Correct settings for a 167 carb are 3/4 to 1 turn on the high needle and 1-1/8 - 1-1/4 on the low needle.
So much for reading the plug. Now you are telling him to make it leaner by a lot!

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-28-2007 10:05 PM  9 years agoPost 49
Avi

rrApprentice

Israel

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Ace, I think you got me wrong. I am not aiming at top performance by neddle tweaking, but rather a proper performance, which I so far did not acheive with richer settings.
The original performance was acheived by no tweaking at all. In fact, after building the heli, I only touched the needle once after about one gallon, and that's it!
If this is not acheivable, then Zenoah is/was doing something very wrong, selling these engines with these carbs. I do, however, know about quite a few helicopters that used to fly well with them (again, not aiming at top performance, or any 3D capabilities).

Andrew, the manual that I have (got it with the engine) says low needle: 1 1/8 +- 1/4, high needle - 1 3/8 +- 1/4. This is allot leaner than what people around here talk about. On the other hand, it also says to use 1:20 oil. That's why I was asking about "reading the plug".

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11-29-2007 12:42 AM  9 years agoPost 50
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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Ace, I think you got me wrong.
I don't mean to accuse you of doing something wrong. I, like many others are reading these posts and try to guess what is happening. In most cases we are not given the whole history of what occurred prior. If this engine ran fine originally then what were the needle settings? That should be your starting point.

20:1 might work fine for mineral oil but it isn't fine for synthetic.

Ace
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11-29-2007 12:48 AM  9 years agoPost 51
FCM

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Surrey, England

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If I were you, I would pay little attention to the Zenoah manual. They don't fly helis and it has been proven time and time again that tuning a Zenoah for reliable heli use is a bit special.

The spark plug cannot lie! If the plug looks weak then it is weak. Run and fly the heli for at least two hours before you start tweaking for performance. Make sure it is running a bit rich and do not allow the engine to be bogged down where it may overheat.

If after the engine is broken in, you are still suffering from a lack of performance then look at the exhaust - it may be partially blocked.

Paul.

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11-29-2007 01:41 PM  9 years agoPost 52
FCM

rrElite Veteran

Surrey, England

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Here's the plug from my G230RC engine. This runs with 66:1 Motul 610 oil and regular unleaded.

It is actually a little bit dark but I don't care as it runs smooth and cool.

With a 40:1 mix you will not be able to run as rich as this but it will not matter too much unless you want to run a heavy helicopter (like I do) in high temperatures (also like I do!)

Paul.

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11-29-2007 03:24 PM  9 years agoPost 53
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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I beg to differ

Correct needle settings range on a 167a is actually reversed from what is said above. The LOW needle is 1 +/- 1/4 and the high needle is 1 1/4 +/- 1/4.

Actually settings that seem to work well is 1 1/4 to 1 1/8 on the high needle and 1 turn to 7/8 turn on the low needle.

I flew the 167a carb for years with 32:1 mixture and my needles were 1 1/4 on high and about 7/8 on low.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4129 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3187 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1425 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 185 flts

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11-29-2007 05:55 PM  9 years agoPost 54
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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Avi if you are not confused on where to set the needles by now you should be. I say bench test it. You can't tell what an engine is doing if you don't have a good starting point.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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