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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Predator tail shaking up and down
12-02-2007 08:59 PM  10 years agoPost 61
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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Sorry, i'm too excited

Well in my excitement i didn't give you the full story on the tail shake fix, so here goes.

I didn't want to change more than one thing at a time while trying to trouble shoot the tail shake so when reinstalling the TT i put back the metal tail so the only thing that was different was the bearing supports. hence the reason why i said that the bearing supports was the culprit.

Sorry i forgot to tell you the details but Raj the tail shakes weren't that "Serious" as you said in your post above but its just a better not to have any shakes.

I'm so sorry that you didn't get to fly it at the field but hey, thats over and gone. Today i was able to put in a tank of hovering, i'm on leave this week so i'll definitely get some more tanks in this week.

I used a fresh gallon of fuel at 40:1 ratio, engine started on 5th pull cold, it idled ok i bit high on the trim so i'll be adjusting that.

There was about a 8MPH wind with a gust or two at over 10MPH

She held up well and so did my confidence.

I'll be taking this week to get the needles correct as well as my hovering.

Gary did a power climb and she didn't bog at all, he changed the pitch at normal for my "newbie" status so i'm now at +6 & -4 in normal.

I'm going to do some clean up now so i'll keep you all posted.

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-02-2007 09:49 PM  10 years agoPost 62
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I am a newbie and I like +10. You don't need to use it all but it is there if you need to stop it from falling toward the ground.

Ace
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12-03-2007 05:00 AM  10 years agoPost 63
Excalibur

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Hi Turbo:

It's nice to hear you're finally getting the bird tweaked into a real flying machine. I was fairly certain the TT bearing holders where causing your tail shake, based on my experiences with it as well.

Now just spend some time flying it around and getting comfortable with it before trying to tear up the sky. It really is a rush flying a big gasser around. Keep us posted.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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12-06-2007 12:06 AM  10 years agoPost 64
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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Ok guys i'm currently going back through the heli to make certain that i understand all areas of the heli.
A local guru went over the heli after raj and made a few tweaks here and there with regards to the links and blade tracking.
So i'm going through these chages so that i'm fully aware of what was changed so that i'm able to understand what affects what.

I've also been checking my blade pitch and looking at my ball links to see how the bell hiller links and the swash plate link affect the pitch and so on.
It may be minor but i just want to have a feel for this, i don't just want to only fly, i want to understand the helicopter world.

Don't wory guys & Raj i put everything back where it was when i'm through.

i'll try and take some pictures for you all.

Raj, i started her up today, didn't get to fly but i started her up with the adjustments i told you and she sounded smoother after i richened the low needle to about 1 1/2, the high needle is at 1 3/8

One thing I had the stick at about 1/4 way up [Midway between mid stick and low stick] and when into Idle up 1, needless to say the heli did a nice squat and the speed increased to the requested RPM's

BUT...!!! there was a slight delay on the engine before she sped up, i'd say about 1 second, i almost thought that she had died.... any thoughts?????
Bill, Raj, X-Cal, ACE... anybody?

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-06-2007 01:23 AM  10 years agoPost 65
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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Low end needle a bit too lean....oops, or too rich

In either case, you must play with them.

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12-06-2007 02:22 AM  10 years agoPost 66
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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High End Needle setting was off

Oldfart, thanks for your input i just checked the needles again after seeing your reply and before posting and the low end was in fact 1 1/2 but the High was actually 1 1/4

I now have the needles as follows;
Low End = 1 1/2
High End = 1 3/8

I will start her tomorrow and recreate the same scenario and see if there is a difference.

If i get you correctly thou, if i hear this bog, then there is a lean issue.

Or could it be a transition issues between the high needle and low needle, Since my high end needle was off?

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-06-2007 05:36 AM  10 years agoPost 67
Excalibur

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Hi Turbo:

Refresh my memory. . . are you still in the break-in stage, or done with it and flying on synthetic oil?

If you are still in break-in, than 1-1/2 on the LO should be OK, but if you are running normal now with synthetic, I would suggest backing the LO needle off to 1-3/8. Remember, don't worry about the HI needle (bogging and fast climb outs), until you establish proper performance at hover with your LO needle.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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12-06-2007 02:38 PM  10 years agoPost 68
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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X-cal, The engine has about 2 gallons through it, the previous owner put about 20 flight through.

you could say its still going through the final stages of break in.

I would probably put a further gallons through this bird before going down to the 1 3/8 what do you think?

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-06-2007 05:31 PM  10 years agoPost 69
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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i richened the low needle to about 1 1/2, the high needle is at 1 3/8
… the low end was in fact 1 1/2 but the High was actually 1 ¼
… If i get you correctly thou, if i hear this bog, then there is a lean issue.
Bog is not a technical term so it means different things to different people. If the engine dies or skips during transition it usually means you are rich. So if you can’t reliably auto then don’t gun it at 100 ft. Do it two or three feet off the ground.

FYI
If you don’t know the difference between a “bog” and a “skip” than don’t use a governor. Because if you do use a governor you will be on a wing and a prayer to detect what is wrong.

I started with a brand new kit from Century that came with a 231PUH. I don’t know where the needles were nor do I care. The engine started with one pull on the choke and the next one it was running. If your engine starts and runs you are at the same point that I was. It ran rough but I finished the first tank off anyway. The second tank I leaned out the low slightly so it didn’t run like a cement mixer. During the second tank I brought the throttle up into the high needle range slowly and then more quickly with no hesitation or bog. Then I ran cycles from the low to the high (3/4 throttle) starting at 5 second intervals and kept doubling the times every cycle (5 sec, 10 sec, 20 sec, 40 sec, etc. After 5 min or so I shut it down and let it cool to just a warm temperature. Then I did the same thing 3 more times.

At this point I got up the nerve to put the thing in the air. At the one gallon point I switched to synthetic and gradually decreased the oil content towards 40:1 (camper fuel). I think I made one more leaning adjustment somewhere along the line. It was at least 4 gallons later before I disconnected the 100 foot rope and let her rip and did a power climb. There were no ill effects what so ever.

My next machine was a used predator with a 260 PUH that had many reported vibration problems for use as a camera ship. At this point I checked the needles on my 231 which were1¼ on high and just under 1¼ on low. I made the 260 the same and when through the same break in procedure as I did with the 231. In this case I richened the high needle slightly. I have since switched over to gasoline and in the process I gummed up the carbs and had bogging issues. I thought the issues were caused from the switch from camper fuel to gasoline but the bottom line is I had some contaminant in the gas can and my refueling bottle had nothing more than a screen when I thought it was a filter so it ended up in both carbs.

What is the point of telling you my experience? The point is you have to be able to recognize what is normal and what is not and react to what you see rather than ask other people what to set the needles at. It is not likely that any of the people you are asking will be with you when something goes a miss. If you want to set both needles at 1 ¼ to start; go ahead. If you want to set both needles at 1 3/8 to start; go ahead or for that matter any needle setting anyone post. It is what you do from this point on that will make the difference.

Turbo, you had a golden opportunity when Raja was there to look over your shoulder for engine tuning. You should have picked his brain before he got away. That opportunity is not the same when he is back home. Raja being there is better than 17 paragraphs that I could write and far better off than asking 100 other people their opinions.

If you don’t have someone where you live that can help you with tuning, my suggestion is to pick someone that you feel comfortable with on this forum and only ask and FOLLOW their directions. This is one case where mixing ideas can get you in trouble.

Ace
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12-06-2007 06:07 PM  10 years agoPost 70
oldfart

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Vancouver, Canada

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TBGTI,

Ace is giving some good advice. And from what you have said about your needle settings, I would guess you are too rich (these settings depend on a number of factors (temp, humidity and altitude etc.), but your needles seem way too rich.

I am at sea level where summer temps vary between 18 & 25 degrees C. And both my needles are also at 1 1/8 using Namptha and amsoil @ 60/1.

Check your plug and see what colour it is. I bet is a heavy brown rather then a lighter grey.

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12-06-2007 10:20 PM  10 years agoPost 71
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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Thanks ACE i guess i'll talk to Raj as he knows the heli somewhat.

I'll keep u all posted

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-07-2007 05:34 AM  10 years agoPost 72
Excalibur

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Turbo:

If the engine was run with break-in oil for 2 gallons, and you are still using break-in oil, you could switch to synthetic and fly a tankful to see how the bird responds. If it seems sloppy rich and has a lot of tail kicking, start leaning the LO needle a bit at a time, ONLY to get it to stop tail kicking as much.

If it is being broken in with synthetic, keep running several more gallons through it and leave your LO needle slightly rich (about where it is).

I know it's tough to learn tuning over the internet, but stick with it and you will get there. The critical thing is to prevent a situation that could damage your engine, and you are probably already aware of it (too lean). Keep us posted.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

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12-07-2007 06:18 AM  10 years agoPost 73
FCM

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Surrey, England

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It will take a lot more than 2 gallons of 40:1 synthetic mix to break the engine in. Follow Excal's advice and slightely lean the low and keep on flying it. Don't keep chasing the needles as you will get nowhere fast. This engine needs running time from the sound of it and you will not damage it with the needles set the way Excal has described.

Sounds like your nearly there

Paul.

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12-07-2007 06:23 AM  10 years agoPost 74
FCM

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Surrey, England

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If you don’t know the difference between a “bog” and a “skip”
We're talking about engines right? So what is a skipping engine? I am keen to learn!

Paul.

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12-07-2007 05:19 PM  10 years agoPost 75
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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X-cal the engine was run on camper fuel with 5 oz. of lawn boy oil with the original owner.
Since i've got it i've been running synthetic oil, i'm taking her out this afternoon and i'll report my findings.

Thanks FCM

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-07-2007 05:48 PM  10 years agoPost 76
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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You want my definition?

A skip is when the engine misfires, stumbles, and generally runs like a cement mixer usually causes from a very rich condition. A bog is a slow down in rpm that is characteristic of a lean condition but can very easily be masked by a sudden increase in load. If it is a sudden load condition the rpm will return to the original rpm over time. If it is a lean condition it will not and most likely it will get worse. A tachometer is an essential tool for engine tuning IMO.
i guess i'll talk to Raj as he knows the heli somewhat.
Good decision, but it has to go further than talking. You have to now listen to him and only to him. He is going to teach you his way and in the future you can develop your own way. A hundred mixed ideas is a formula for disaster. Following one lead will get you where you want to be even though the path may not be perfect.

Ace
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12-08-2007 12:43 AM  10 years agoPost 77
FCM

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Surrey, England

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Skip = misfire - thank you

Paul.

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12-08-2007 01:06 AM  10 years agoPost 78
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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Well guys i started her up but she was still not smooth.
when i went up on the throttle the engine sounded like it was going to die so i landed, shortly after the engine died.

i tried to start her back with no luck, i turned the needle back to 1 3/8 and she started then shut off, this happened about 3 times.

I then checked to make sure that my needles were at 1 3/8, this was so.

to put a long store short, the engine never started back and idled smoothly.

my next move is to replace the spark plug and test with the needles at 1 3/8.

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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12-08-2007 02:23 AM  10 years agoPost 79
rbort

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Franklin, MA - USA

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Possibilities

Well it can be that the engine got rich and quit. When you richen the needles it changes the idle point so you will have to readjust the throttle curves and idle point all over again. If it quit it means nothing, just raise the idle point a bit more. Also it probably won't start because its rich and the carb butterfly is open too little.

Gasser engine idle in helis is erratic at best. It won't idle smoothly, rpms are usually variable (within reason) until you start to throttle up and then it should smoothen out.

You can take a look at the spark plug and if you had to buy a new one get a NGK CMR7H one. However, don't count on the spark plug being the issue, chances of that is slim.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4142 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3210 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1440 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 207 flts

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12-08-2007 05:39 AM  10 years agoPost 80
turbogti

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St. Andrew, Jamaica

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I believe i found the problem

It may be radio setup.
a local heli guy made some changes on the heli as well as my radio.
One such change was to make the gov activate with the throttle stick at 20%
This was done but the values in the Governor fuctions of the radio were not checked and they were like
Normal = +10%
ST-1 = +10%
ST-2 = +12%

Based on the JR manual these figures follow the Travel Adjust Values exactly, hence if the travel adjust value was 55% then the gov value would also be 55%.

Well since my values are +10 & 12% when i go above the 20% throttle stick position the governor becomes active and carries the throttle down to 10% hence me getting a rough engine. Well.. at least this is my theory

I have since changed the Radio back to where Raj set it so that my "Gear" switch turns my Gov on and off.

Tomorrow i'll try her again.
I hope the above makes sense...

****Predator Gasser SE - She's Ready to rumble ***

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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Predator tail shaking up and down
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