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T-REX 450 › Scorpion 2221-8 amps
09-12-2007 10:35 PM  10 years agoPost 21
SVM

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Cherry Hill, NJ

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Tom I have only gone by what I've read hear on RR, and other sites.
The info I had on the jazz dose seem to work.
I stated before I am not a expert if some one else can give better info I will listen & learn.
With my current setup my hs stopped going up at 75% (3150)I have the 2221-8 12t Revco pinion, Jazz, & Radix Blades +12 -12, its hard to bog down at 70% (3000). It will Bog if I use a week battery

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09-13-2007 06:07 AM  10 years agoPost 22
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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I flew twice tonight when I got home. This is my first flight using my newly installed Jazz 40-6-18. That ESC is SO DAMN GOOD at holding headspeed. Its even better than I had imagined it would be, and thats with the previously marginal performing 10-12 month old Prolites. If I can borrow an FP or Hextronic battery again on Saturday I expect to have vicious power like last time, maybe even better since I'm on a Jazz now.

I won't know my headspeed until Saturday though. A guy I frequently fly with has an optical tach. Will advise.

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09-13-2007 12:43 PM  10 years agoPost 23
TomRex

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West Palm Beach ​Join Date:​12-28-2005

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those optical tachs don't go much past 2000 rpm, a cheap tower tach will do!

Edti: DC I've used the opti tach, I really don't see the advantage of such a contraption. You cannot see what is going at all, a buddy must do that for you. You have to adjust the range you want to see the blades etc. I have a tach that goes to 200K rpm and a cheap tower tach. The tower tach works just as well by myself or if a friend gets a reading at hover. No squinting! Reguardless the Jazz you got will not loose any gov rpm under a full charge during a full load, some grunting is acceptible, headspeed loss will be at a minimum for the most part. Luck!

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact

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09-13-2007 03:20 PM  10 years agoPost 24
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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Oh dear. If you set the optical tac to half the headspeed it will also read the same way.

i.e. If the headspeed is 3400, then 1700 will make the blades look stationary, just like 1700 will make the headspeed look stationary at 1700. I like the optical tach because you can read headspeed doing aerobatics just as easily as hovering, or strapped down to a table. In any case where you can SEE the aircraft, moving or not, you can read the headspeed and see the amount of variation as you load it.

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09-18-2007 06:12 AM  10 years agoPost 25
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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I finally got an RPM reading yesterday.

Headspeed running Scorp 2221-8, 12T Revco "Hardone" pinion, Jazz 40-6-18 ESC, and 1 year old TP 2100 Prolites.... 9Z radio, in case it matters. I get about 5 minutes of 3D, and the Prolites end up about 11.2v on average.

Idle2 is set to 53%, and HS is around 3,020 RPM (measured at hover within first 30 seconds of flight).

I am still very impressed with that Scorpion motor, its monster power for 3S.

I'm going to lower my Idle2 HS to 50% and try to drop RPMs hopefully a bit under 3,000 to avoid blowing up the tail (I'm running original gear, not the slow one).

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09-18-2007 11:15 AM  10 years agoPost 26
TomRex

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West Palm Beach ​Join Date:​12-28-2005

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Get yourself an 11t pinion and raise your TC. I'm afraid you're gonna toast your esc & batt. Besides wait till you hit the sweet spot!

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact

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09-19-2007 04:29 PM  10 years agoPost 27
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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Remember, I'm using the Jazz not the Castle 35 any more. Temps on ESC and battery are very low, lower than with the CC35 using max throttle was. I'm almost at max throttle now on the Jazz really because that red light goes on just a few percentage points higher than what I'm governing it at now. I was thinking of trying to go even lower on the throttle to leave more headroom.

I can touch my motor too as soon as I land, it doesn't feel hot at all. The battery is in the 110 - 115 range, the ESC is in the high 90's. That data doesn't sound bad does it? I'm not sure what ESC temps are supposed to get to.

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09-19-2007 04:39 PM  10 years agoPost 28
TomRex

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West Palm Beach ​Join Date:​12-28-2005

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That is great! I had an experience when I first went 4s, used a 12t on a 1107-3400kv motor @ 65%% for 3k, waisted the batt and the Jazz was hot. I cant find my post from way back but was told the esc used amps to maintain head speed and the 12t too much loading, went to 10t at 90% for 3150rpm all day no heat. Now I haven't tried the old config with the new H' motor. I still cringe at the thought of someone else frying a battery like I did.

PS: I thought the light came on with load, not necessarily wide open

Double PS: I do know the Jazz will not govern past 90%, it keeps the 10% for rpm head room while on gov mode

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact

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09-19-2007 07:06 PM  10 years agoPost 29
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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I think what I'll do as an experiment then is increase the throttle curve to about 80%, and see if headspeed goes up at all - using optical tac (I think I'm already nearly pegged on HS though). I could also check to see if temps change at all. Gov efficiency should worsen, as the gov won't have anywhere to go when I punch collective. But I think the headspeed will not increase too much from where I am now, even if I run throttle all the way up.

Since the Jazz is a switching ESC, I thought thats why it could get away with lower throttle numbers. What I think the MAIN CONCERN is, is the motor pinion / gear ratio. It will heat up too much based on overgearing THAT, then running lower throttle numbers to keep headspeed down, like I was doing with the Castle 35 and the 13T pinion. When I went 12T and ran 100% on the Castle, everything was optimal. And I think no matter what I do to the Jazz now, even if I lower the throttle numbers more than they are now, I think that my system will not get hot / overamp any longer. Get a little hotter? Maybe, but I don't think it will kill my system at this point.

I'm running mainly off intuition here, and what I've observed. Anyone listening to this thread have a response that is more based on sound electrical principles than my anecdotes.

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09-21-2007 06:19 AM  10 years agoPost 30
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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Well guess what... 80% throttle and I got no appreciable headspeed increase (I didn't HEAR any difference switching from 48%-50% in Idle1, to 80% in Idle2. So I guess I'll leave my Idle2 at 80%, heck probably run Idle1 up there too since there's no difference.

I guess I'd only get in trouble if I tried putting at 100% or something. Maybe even that wouldn't matter since the Jazz "reserves 10%", over anything you put in the throttle line.

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09-27-2007 07:51 PM  10 years agoPost 31
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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I found the spot at which my red light turns on (Jazz ESC) is 53%.

I sat it on the ground at mid-stick and went to Idle1, turned off throttle hold, then it spooled up. It stuck pretty well to the spot it was sitting on cuz I have my mid-stick very close to zero pitch.

I ran my middle throttle number up and down on my 9Z, and the red light went from off at 52% to on at 53%. I think this means 53% is max, and any higher I go is doing nothing at all. Thats why my climbouts didn't change between 60% and 80%, because I was already above max and the gov was running inefficiently at BOTH numbers. Thats why I figured what the hell, just set it 80% like everyone says. But this is a Jazz (and on GOV), so I don't think that applies here.

I set my modes to the following
Norm 40%
Idle1 45%
Idle2 50%

Switching between modes I heard little difference in headspeed (I'm a bit over 3,000 RPMs). Since I heard little difference that means that 40% - 45% are nearly the same headspeed with a much lower throttle number than I thought I would be using. I did a climbout and that sucker took off like a rocket now. I think the reason it did not do this at 60 or 80% is, I was into the governer's headroom already and the governer wasn't able to work as well. I'm going to try climbouts with 43%, 46%, etc and see where my headspeed takes the least hit. If 53% is my max throttle, it seems like running at approx 42-43%, leaves it 20% headroom. Is this math not correct?

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09-27-2007 09:03 PM  10 years agoPost 32
kcass518

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Manhasset, NY - USA

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Very helpful. Thank you! I have a Jazz I haven't installed yet, and have been trying to figure out how to set it up. This helps.

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09-27-2007 09:58 PM  10 years agoPost 33
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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Just be aware, I think this approach would only yield this kind of result if your power system is nicely matched. If the pinion on the motor has too many teeth it will probably run hotter than it should no matter where you run the throttle. For my Scorp 2221-8, the 12T was perfect. I think now that even the 13T wouldn't kill my batteries if I wanted higher headspeed. I don't need higher HS though, its just perfect where it is.

Tonight I flew this sucker again (in the daylight) and I did vicious climbouts and 3D for 5 minutes. I say vicious because I've never seen it dig so hard before, its incredible. Clearly the Jazz works differently. I see now why they say to get the pinion that will get your desired headspeed @ 80% full throttle (by full throttle they mean 80% of the number which gets the red light to turn on), because thats where you'll be flying your throttle curve in Idle2 most likely. For me, the red light was on at 53%, so 42%-43% on throttle curve is 80% of the number that turned on the red light.

1) Set middle throttle number in current flight mode to 40%
2) Throttle hold
3) Set throttle to mid-stick
4) Release Throttle hold
5) When headspeed stabilizes, begin raising throttle number. The middle point only, which corresponds to where your throttle stick position is now - and of course you need 0 pitch here too.
6) Make a mental note of what number you reached when the light went from off to on. This should also be the point where going higher doesn't change the rotor sound either, because you're already pegged.
7) Set straight line throttle curve at 80% of whatever number you noted in Step 6. Ex. Red light @ 90% = 72 throttle line. Red light @ 100 = 80% throttle line, Red light @ 60% = 48% throttle line.

This leaves the ESC exactly 20% margin.

Is my explanation clear? I really want it to be because I've had a heck of a time understanding it myself, and empirically figuring out how this stuff works.

Bat voltage after flight = 11.2V
Bat temp = 105-110
Motor temp = barely over ambient
ESC temp = mid 70's.

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09-29-2007 12:54 PM  10 years agoPost 34
TomRex

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West Palm Beach ​Join Date:​12-28-2005

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Matt, I still don't understand what you've said. All I know is the Jazz works as I have it set and so do you! All the cross reference to the throttle numbers etc is confusing to me. I hope others understand that the Jazz isn't that complicated and really hope others reading this don't get scared off. I use standard throttle curve/line numbers and get the results by the pinion count. Higher throt numbers are more effiecient is all I know. Higher motor rpm lower pinion count. visa versa. My rpm changes at the idle settings I use, they are 80, 85, 90% norm, I1, I2 I don't care when the light comes on or off, only that the Jazz is worth every penny invested. The Jazz is the set it and forget it esc of today and yesterday, its expensive, it works flawlessly. I couldn't afford to purchase less on this decision almost 2yrs ago!

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact

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09-29-2007 05:35 PM  10 years agoPost 35
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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I'm not trying to be belicose, I just have a theory.

Maybe based on your motor and/or radio your light happens to come on at 100%, or 90%. And you've made the conclusion based on your experience with it, that ALL Jazz implementations should have their throttle set at 80%.

I'm running a Jazz ESC on 3 different helicopters now, and every one of them has their Idle2 set differently, based on where that little red light initially came on at zero pitch. Plus, my battery temps are WAY down on all of them, and the climbouts are way UP. That kind of empirical evidence I can't argue with.

Granted, in all cases I did not leave the 20% margin I was supposed to, because I wanted more headspeed. I heard the Jazz leaves itself 10% automatically, so maybe I can be closer to this number than 20% below it. ALSO, I just go now based on how it flies, and whether it climbs hard, and lands with cooler batteries. But make no mistake, I'm not talking about it being "good enough" running on lower numbers. Its actually MORE vicious doing 3D at these settings because the governer has room to operate and keep up with speed changes. Running maxed out above the "red light" level leaves it no room and even with the higher headspeed it sags sometimes. Before all my copters were running at the edge of 135+ degrees, now they're all in the 105-120 degree range, WITH more much more lively flight performance, which tells me I HAVE to be moving in the right direction.

For instance, the T-Rex 600 sounded way low at 72%, so I'm going to fly it up at 78% today and try it out. I was flying at 85% before and those batteries were always cooking at 140+ degrees when I landed. I know this is just NOT right. It can't be. So hovering last night in the mid 70's throttle numbers, the batteries had NO real heat when I touched them, and I found when I got home I had barely taken 3 amps out of the batteries in 5 minutes. Normally 5.5+ amps needs to be put back in after 5 minutes of 3D.

3S T-Rex 450 w/ Scorpion 2221-8 +12T Idle2: 46% (red @ 53)
4S Lepton EX w/ Hyperion 10-turn +23T Idle2 70% (red @ 80)
10S T-Rex 600 w/ NEU 1515/2Y +10T Idle2 78% (red @ 90)

Can a bonafide Jazz expert confirm or deny my methods of operation here? Someone who has like 5+ helis running a Jazz and has found the same things I have to be true? Or refute me, either way we'll then know more.

Sorry for the long winded post.

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09-29-2007 07:03 PM  10 years agoPost 36
SVM

rrNovice

Cherry Hill, NJ

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I have read hear and on other forums that other users have had odd settings with the Jazz. One theory that said that the jazz needs to be calibrate to the end points of your radio system. The manual is vague and hard to make sense out of, the more I read about all the ideas that others have about setting up the th curve the more confused I get. If your setting seem to work for you, every thing is cool when you land and your happy with it then don't worry about what every one else says it should be set at.

Your set up is almost identical to mine except for the radio I use a DX6, my hs at 0 pitch is 3060 W 12t pinion, at 70% I don't know when the red light comes on, hs stopped going up at 75% I think the RPM was 3150. If I took it to 100% it still behaved the same as at 75%. Your settings may be different because of the radio, or the Setting of end points.

If you want to get a lot lower like 2900 I do agree with tom that you should try the 11t pinion. I had mine set up at 2880, but don't remember the th curve %.

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09-30-2007 12:46 AM  10 years agoPost 37
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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My headspeed probably IS 2900 now that I'm down 15% lower than WOT (where I used to run). It was just over 3,000 before.

12T is perfect.

Also, if you're at 75%, and it pegs at 80%, then you do have 9.3% headroom above there, so the gov has some room to work.

My big T-Rex 600 and Lepton flew like champs today. They flew a little longer too.

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10-05-2007 02:40 PM  10 years agoPost 38
kcass518

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Manhasset, NY - USA

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Just installed my Jazz last night and only had time to initialize it this morning, but wanted to see if what I'm doing is remotely correct. My motor is the Align 430L in the TRex 450SE V1 with the 13 tooth pinion.

First, my red light is always on. I started my throttle curve at 20% and zero pitch. The red light went on when I plugged in the battery. Is this wrong?

Second, I only got to 30.5% to generate a headspeed of 2800. Should I be running a higher headspeed? 30.5% seems awfully low.

I'll do more testing this weekend, but I don't want to blow things up before I get started!

Also, do I have to do the 'zero pitch, run up the motor' thing every flight to calibrate the governor function? Or will it remember its last setting?

Okay, more info - the red light is NOT always on - just when initializing and at zero throttle. As soon as I increase the throttle, the light goes off. I moved my headspeed (calculated with my EagleTree) up and couldn't get higher than 2850 - Throttle Curve at 33.5%. More throttle% = nothing. Is my old battery holding me back or is it the pinion? I'll keep testing as I'm able.

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10-05-2007 04:37 PM  10 years agoPost 39
TomRex

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West Palm Beach ​Join Date:​12-28-2005

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After reading this again, I double checked some things on mine, if I drop the throttle line to 40 or 50% on gov it doesn't creat enough rpm to fly. No matter where I put my throttle the light is on at plug in. When I raise my curve up again it flys. The point of the exercise is to get the system as effiecient as possible, my setup at 85% Idle 1 on a Neu1107H, 4s1800,10t pinion gives me right at 2950k,Idle 2 at 90% is 3150 for 5.5 min needing 1+- amp back. norm at 80% is 2750, light on no matter what in gov for me. It may blink off when the governed head speed is exceded I don't know. DB what has Kontronic said of your setup?

Ignorance is the absence of facts.Stupid is lacking the intellectual capacity to comprehend the fact

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10-05-2007 05:12 PM  10 years agoPost 40
dcbinkowski

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Lombard, IL - USA

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[First, my reply to TomRex]

Kontronik has not addressed my methods or my setups, I've made no inquiries to them either. I've only listed here the anecdotal information that I have seen flying my 3 setups.

As Eintstein says everything is relative... You are actually running 4S too. I'm not sure if that is another reason for the differences or not.

QUESTION FOR YOU
About what throttle curve percentage makes your red light go from OFF to ON ? Thats my big question... Other than throttle hold and initialization time of course, I mean with the rotor spinning...

As I've mentioned I have 3 different electrics with Jazz ESCs, and a different throttle setups for each. And yours is probably different than any of mine because its a different motor, like I said I don't know if 4S vs. 3S on the same ESC/motor combo would change this number or not.

The point of going to 40-50% is not for YOU to run there because I do, its a starting point to THEN begin raising that center throttle number up (while at center stick hovering on the ground), until the red light goes on. WHEN that red light goes on you're supposedly pegged, no more power will be given no matter how much higher you se the percentage. Perhaps 100% on yours really does coincide with the Jazz's 100%, which is why 80-85 was so perfect for you.

These are the throttle percentages at which my red light turns on.
Subsequently, my throttle curves are below this number at anywhere between 70 - 85% of this value, depending on how I want my headspeed.
(Everything seems relative to the Jazz's range, not the throttle range on the radio).

My Lepton EX / Hyperion 10-turn @ 80% (80% of this is 64.0)
My T-Rex 600 / NEU 1515/2y @ 90% (80% of this is 72.0)
My T-Rex 450 / Scorpion 2221-8 @ 53% (80% of this is 42.4)

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T-REX 450 › Scorpion 2221-8 amps
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