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HelicopterOff Topics › Bonds hits 756...
08-08-2007 06:02 PM  10 years agoPost 21
AV8TOR

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08-08-2007 06:17 PM  10 years agoPost 22
KopterKat

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New Jersey

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Pete Rose broke a baseball law many years ago that, in my opinion, is less grieveous than taking roids and he is still shunned by the MLB to this day.
Here's the deal as I see it. Pete Rose broke a writen rule of baseball issued after the White Sox scandal which stated that if you bet on baseball ,while actively involved in baseball you will be kicked out of baseball period.

Now thats the rule and one of the greatest players of the game ever is banned from the HOF. Barry Bonds hasn't been proven to have broken any rule. Now speculation have created guilt in the court of public opinion but until it's proven beyond a reasonible doubt this guy should be off the hook.

In my opinon Bonds,Arron or Ruth aren't even close to the true Home Run King. Josh Gibson jacked 962 recorded home runs. Thats right 962! Now thats a crime. A guy that great and MLB doesn't recognize that achivment.

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08-08-2007 08:26 PM  10 years agoPost 23
EvoFlight50

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Nobody knows how many home runs Gibson hit because the negro leagues didn't keep track of all their stats and games. Plus Gibson didn't even play in the major leagues.

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08-08-2007 08:39 PM  10 years agoPost 24
Pyrock

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SF Bay Area

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Josh Gibson jacked 962 recorded home runs. Thats right 962! Now thats a crime.
What kind of pitchers did he hit against?

Trex 500, Stretched Logo 10 3D, Ion-X, Gaui 200

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08-08-2007 08:58 PM  10 years agoPost 25
carzan

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Lone Star State

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All the juicing and that crap doesnt matter i mean yea he did use them but think how hard it is to get the ball over the fence thats sometimes almost 500 feet the juice is just a fast workout... but all in all he diod it and its done.

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08-08-2007 09:27 PM  10 years agoPost 26
Flyon

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Did Hank Aaron juice? How do you know one way or another. I don't follow baseball, but I know steroid use has been going on a very long time.

Steroids were first discovered in 1935, but did not start being abused until 1954 with Olympic weightlifters being the first abusers. Steroids didn't migrate to the United States until 1956, and were only used by world-class athletes.

With this limited information, one can see the possibility that Hank Aaron could have used steroids. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility.

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08-08-2007 09:33 PM  10 years agoPost 27
gian

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AZ

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I love how the asterisk looks just like a little a$$hole- how appropriate.

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08-09-2007 12:00 AM  10 years agoPost 28
A. Bundy

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Juiced hitters vs. juiced pitchers.He's just a figurehead for steroids.All your athletes of the recent past in major sports are suspect.

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08-09-2007 12:32 AM  10 years agoPost 29
RayJayJohnsonJr

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Whooptie Freakin' Do!

-Mark

There, their and they're. It's really that simple.

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08-09-2007 10:15 PM  10 years agoPost 30
A. Bundy

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What's with the eye roll?

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08-09-2007 11:33 PM  10 years agoPost 31
GimbalFan (RIP)

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* Barry Bonds has knowingly and repeatedly consumed performance-enhancing substances.

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08-10-2007 01:06 AM  10 years agoPost 32
A. Bundy

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Then there will be a butt load of *s in the near future of records for all sports.Lot were dirty.Rules were not in place.Testing was not done.Selig did this to himself.

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08-10-2007 01:14 AM  10 years agoPost 33
A. Bundy

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Good read
As to the absurd power surge of McGwire and Sosa that summer, we vaguely knew something was up, but we didn't care. We were having too much fun. We were smoking Lucky Strikes and driving cars without seatbelts. Damn the consequences.

But things got out of hand. McGwire followed up his 70 homers with 65. Sosa went 66, 63, 50 and 64. The perfect, venerable calculus of the game was bending.

In 2001, it splintered into 73 pieces as Bonds homered every 6.5 at bats.

Now something had to be done.

Commissioners, columnists and common fans all knew there needed to be a market correction. And there was only one surefire way to bring that about.

A ban on steroids needed to be codified, implemented and enforced. Happily, the guy suspected of benefiting the most from roids also happened to be the most hated dude in baseball. This was going to be easy.

But something happened in our rush to cleanse ourselves — for surely we were complicit — of the Steroid Era. In our desire to purge our souls, we threw the Barry out with the bath water. Far too many people, convinced he was a cheater, were all too willing to discount his entire career in the same Draconian fashion that they expunged Pete Rose from baseball for something he did after his playing career ended.

Why so unforgiving? Because Barry Bonds is the kind of vicious bully that any right-thinking non-Giants fan would understandably want to see torn down.

But is it possible that we owe Bonds a debt of gratitude? I mean, after all, wasn't it Barry, peeved at McGwire's success, who allegedly decided to demonstrate just what the perfect blend of athlete and science lab could produce?

An .863 slugging percentage, for starters. A 1.421 OPS three years later.

The only remaining question about Bonds is will he go in on the first ballot. Which, of course, he should.

In weighing Barry's place in baseball history, aren't we obliged to ignore the fact that he's a colossal jerk? And, if we're honest with ourselves, aren't we really just pretending our hatred of him is moral outrage over his cheating? This makes us feel better, less petty, more righteous.

I've decided to just treat Barry's toxic personality as a neutral, non-weight-bearing element of his package and judge him on the assumption that he was a big-time user during an era of rampant steroid use. Of the hundreds or thousands of players who juiced in the Steroid Era, he was the best. By far.

So let's pretend that performance-enhancing drugs were not proscribed by baseball when Bonds was going bananas. Oh, that's right, they weren't. So we don't have to pretend on that front.

(And to those who say that they're illegal and therefore implicitly banned, I'd counter that it's also illegal to throw a baseball as hard as you can at someone, but no one has ever been prosecuted for a bean ball because we accept that baseball is governed by its own laws.)

Once we set aside Bonds' obnoxiousness, we can judge him on the merits. And the demerits.

There are many ways to dock Bonds for breaking a rule that didn't exist. One of the most common is for people to rhetorically wipe out his entire post-'98 power surge and point out that he'd still be a Hall of Famer. At that point in his career, he had 411 home runs, 445 stolen bases and three MVP awards.

Another possibility is trying to determine how much the juice speeds up your bat and how much that impacts your statistics. Does a 10 percent increase in bat speed up your numbers 20 percent? If you sliced off a fifth of the bombs Barry hit post-'98 he'd still have 687 home runs.

But I'll go you one further. Let's take away all of his home runs, including the ones he hit as a skinny stripling in Pittsburgh.

Guess what. Still a Hall of Famer.

Go ahead, replace all 756 home runs with singles and the guy would still be much, much more dominant than Hall of Fame rabbits Lloyd Waner, Richie Ashburn and Lou Brock.

Waner hit .316 with a .353 OBP and 67 career steals. Ashburn hit .308 with a .396 OBP and 234 steals. Brock hit .293 with a .343 OBP and 938 steals (at a 75.3 percent success rate).

Bonds sits at .298 with a .444 OBP and 514 steals (at a 78.5 percent success rate). It's a goofy exercise — the walks were largely a by-product of his power — but it points out how much he did to help his team beyond hitting balls into McCovey Cove.

We need to figure out a somewhat uniform adjustment for judging the Steroid Era, the same way we've collectively reduced the achievements of those pre-humidor Colorado Rockies.

We can't simply discount the entire era. Is anyone who put up their biggest numbers between 1996 (the year Brady Anderson hit 50) and 2004 automatically tainted? Or only the guys who underwent obvious physical changes along with their production spikes?

The numbers should obviously be adjusted down — the same way you might for someone who played in the 1930s — but not taken with a grain of salt. They should be graded on a curve, which, by the way, is still very hard to hit even after a cycle of Stanozolol.

We don't like Barry Bonds. But our contempt does not diminish his achievements. And while the "cream" and the "clear" perhaps do diminish his records, they do not — and should not — obliterate his remarkable body of work.

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08-10-2007 01:21 AM  10 years agoPost 34
GimbalFan (RIP)

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Interesting, well-written article. Do you know who wrote it?

I'd be satisfied to see that all stats and records which have to do with Bonds' hitting numbers are followed by this well-deserved asterisk. In my mind his non-power stats aren't affected enough by his juicing to warrant exclusion.


* Barry Bonds has knowingly and repeatedly consumed performance-enhancing substances.

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08-10-2007 01:49 AM  10 years agoPost 35
A. Bundy

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Yes,sir.It was Kevin Hench from Fox Sports...BTW,does anyone have a list of known clean players?Impossible to know...Also,if you search around you can read about a lot of ex olympic atheletes who did this over the years.The bikers have tons of doping.I would assume it is as widespead in long distance running.Blood doping would be good for hockey,basketball,swimming,and motocross.In football,average 325 pound football lines are common.Pro wrestlers have no body fat.Bodybuilders have been admittingly doing this since the 60s.Mcguire and Sosa are bullcrap.Giambi,Conseco,Palmiero,Caminetti.....Pitchers can(and I'm sure have)use steroids to speed recovery time.Pretty helpfull to be heathly and strong every start.I read that that there were 22 positives in MMA fighting this year so far.In fact,the last lightweight UFC championship fight had both fighters test positive,and the guys knew going in they would be tested!I lifted in my high school years (1988 grad)and several of my friends told me they were approached in gyms to be sold steroids.This is not new....I think it is silly to make Bonds the big,bad,dirty,meanie when he is just one of the many cheaters in pro sports.

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08-10-2007 02:30 AM  10 years agoPost 36
GimbalFan (RIP)

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It's not so much that Bonds juiced -- juicing was common, and at the time it was not technically illegal in the minds of MLB officials.

What pisses me off is that regardless of legality it was cheating -- and yet he denies it, AND is willing to take from Hank Aaron the glory of being the home run leader with no acknowledgment of the role steroids had in his ability.

He juiced -- but what's worse is that he LIES about it. F Barry.


* Barry Bonds has knowingly and repeatedly consumed performance-enhancing substances.

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08-10-2007 02:49 AM  10 years agoPost 37
A. Bundy

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I told my Dad before he broke the record that I could make Bonds come out a hero.He should have admitted everything and apologised for everything and thrown himself on mercy of public opinion while announcing his retirement after hitting 754.America would have ate it up for him being the first guy with something to lose to come totally clean......Whatever.It is what it is,and if you can't guess by now,I lost my respect for pro sports a long time ago.

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08-10-2007 03:02 AM  10 years agoPost 38
cookie monster

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Same here...sports, boxing, fake...fake...fake

Miniature Aircraft fury extreme 90 710 radix Y.S 91

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08-10-2007 04:55 AM  10 years agoPost 39
Dakine

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OC, Commifornia

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Perhaps MLB should have stats differentiating two categories:

Natural Talent Home Run King: Hank Aaron, 755 HR.

Juiced Home Run King: Barry Bonds, 7XX HR.
.

.
.
There was an investigation about 10 - 12 years ago looking into why the new generation baseball players were hitting more home runs, AND WITH FURTHER DISTANCES. One theory was newer (generation) 'base balls' were made differently assisting players to hit the balls further which helped to carry them out the park to spark and created more excitement to the sport because there was a decline in park attendance.

Come to realize now.....STEROIDS!

Perhaps there should be two leagues, one Natural and one with Juiced players. I wonder which league would obtain a bigger fan base with greater park attendance?

Hmmmm....

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08-10-2007 06:20 AM  10 years agoPost 40
rchelichop

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seeya

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Do all the sentimental boobs want Hank Aron to hold the record and not Barry Bonds? If it wasn't for roids, they'd try and find something else to try to tarnish the record. Even so juiced, it still takes a cr@p load of talent and skill to accomplish this achievment. To all the anti-roids bent BONEHEADS out there, it doesn't take raw power to get a HR. If you've ever hit a HR in your life, sometimes, it feels like you barely even tried, that means you hit the sweet spot and for the same power given you can double or triple the distance of the ball. Sorry suckers, but roids isn't the problem, you h8ters are!

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