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HelicopterFlybarless Rotor Head SystemsOther › Flybarless head for T-rex 450?
08-07-2007 06:04 AM  10 years agoPost 1
hercflyer

rrNovice

Des Moines, WA. USA

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Does anyone know how to buy, build and set-up a flybarless head for the T-rex 450? Or at least where to find the parts, and some issues that have come up that can be avoided? Any knowledge concerning this, that you would be willing to impart would be most useful in helping with a scale JMD project.

-Jason

Go big or go home!

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08-07-2007 12:52 PM  10 years agoPost 2
SSN PrurrElite Veteran - Taxachusetts - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

take the flybar off the head. manufacture up some custom rods to go direct from teh swashplate to the blade grips. keep the washout base on with the lower mixing arms. these will act as the swash driver.

the heli will fly differently. sluggish in response to some. you could use a ccpm manager or virtual flybar system to compensate for the lack of the flybar but the 450 is smallish to use it on.

lastly...

I know you are new here but most people are not new to forums in general....

It's a beautiful thing and saves time and aggrevation.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-07-2007 08:44 PM  10 years agoPost 3
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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Sounds like someone else could benefit from a search
Willy, I dont think so. Have you flown a flybarless trex? I have flown one and there was a noticeable lack of control authority. I didnt set the thing up but I can tell you that the word to describe the control response was sluggish.

I've done plenty of flybarless research. My gallery shows the results of my research in the form of a custom design...

Go crawl back into your hole now troll

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 05:12 AM  10 years agoPost 4
Rennster

rrVeteran

Hawaii

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Willy is baaack...

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08-08-2007 06:49 AM  10 years agoPost 5
GimbalFan (RIP)

rrProfessor

Big Coppitt Key, FL

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Willy is baaack...
Be patient. Listen once more (for the 20th time at least) for that familiar exit music -- the band is tuning up yet again to play that oft-heard refrain . . .

op-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-thwop-t

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08-08-2007 09:28 AM  10 years agoPost 6
Eco8gatorrrElite Veteran - Palm Beach, FL - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Will is right, removing the flybar makes the head very unstable. You can either weight the blades or add some sort of electronic stabilizer. Here are a few flybarless 450's we have been working with,

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08-08-2007 01:03 PM  10 years agoPost 7
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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perhaps the rotor head that i flew without a flybar was not timed correctly but I can without a doubt say that the controls were sluggish. By sluggish, i mean to say that I give it cyclic and the reaction on the heli was just not instantaneous. perhaps the owner had intentionally dialed down the cyclic pitch so much so that the controls were sluggish.

Willy, I really do not care what you EVER have to say. You can not sit there half way around the world and dictate to me what my experience was when flying a flybarless trex. Have you flown one? I'm willing to bet that you havent and that you will most assuredly say you have... you are absolutely pathetic.

Instability when flying a flybarless head is subjective and comes down to the thumbs and hand-to-eye coordination of each individual. From what I understand, the electronic stability systems available mainly stabilize the heli in forward flight and prevent pitch up and roll with faster speeds.

The subject of flybars could cover an entire college course. Without a flybar on our little helicopters, we couldnt detect the minute cyclic inputs required when compared to sitting in a helicopter to keep it in a stabile attitude. The flybar accomplishes that for us now. Also, the flybar acts to tame down the cyclic rate of the rotor disk by MAKING the rotor disk cyclic rate follow the cyclic rate of the flybar paddles. Why? The flybar paddles have much less area and their angular velocity as a whole is much less than the main rotor blades.

read and enjoy (and maybe learn something for once willy...)

http://www.w3mh.co.uk/articles/html/csm9-11.htm

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 02:26 PM  10 years agoPost 8
Carey

rrVeteran

Allentown USA

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Willy: Gimbal fan i would have thought a man with your experience would be able to contribute sensibly to this thread?
Willy, there are ways to get the point across without sounding like an abrasive teenager.

Even in cyberspace, social skills are encouraged.

Cheers

P.S. The search link should be either blinking like the PM link, or permanently colored.

This message board software is not the clearest product I have seen. I prefer vbulletin.

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08-08-2007 02:32 PM  10 years agoPost 9
gian

rrVeteran

AZ

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HEY.

Maybe he was unsatisfied with his search results. This is a forum for questions, right? Jeez.

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08-08-2007 02:49 PM  10 years agoPost 10
Eco8gator

rrElite Veteran

Palm Beach, FL

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Hello

Well, Ive been working with flybarless for about 4 months straight and have flown them in just about any config you could think of.

The heli is anything but sluggish(maybe in a very very small portion of the center but definitally not at the extreams), it extreamly fast and very unstable...Im refering to the TREX. Even very basic manuvers like backwards flight are difficult to control.

A flybarless TREX with no stabalization can be the fastest flipping thing youve ever seen...its very scary. If you dont believe me try it and hopefully you dont hit the dirt trying.

And one last thing. Chris Harmon is one of my test pilots and even he was freaked out on how fast the flybarless TREX was with no stabalization...his comments "uncontrollable".... Watch a few of his vids you youll see how good he is.

C

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08-08-2007 02:52 PM  10 years agoPost 11
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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The heli is anything but sluggish(maybe in a very very small portion of the center but definitally not at the extreams), it extreamly fast and very unstable...Im refering to the TREX. Even very basic manuvers like backwards flight are difficult to control.
When I flew the flybarless, it was in a confined area and I was not able to get into any meaningful FF. I can attest to the controls being "sluggish" around center. It could have been the setup.

I am not trying to contest the fact that the cyclic rates go through the roof when going flybarless here despite what some crazy islander will have you believe.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 03:32 PM  10 years agoPost 12
Nitrohuffer

rrKey Veteran

Bloomingburg,NY

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Another pissing match on runryder? I'm shocked!

Lungs transformed to take in water.

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08-08-2007 03:36 PM  10 years agoPost 13
Portblock

rrVeteran

Van Nuys, CA

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umdpru,

Not to argue with you, but perhaps you have mis-interpeted what you have read, a flybar, yes, will control roll rate, but it will not speed it up faster than flybar-less, it controls roll rate by not allowing the helicopter to overtake the flybar, thus the heli is limited on its roll rate by the rate at wich the flybar rolls. As for the pitch of paddles of the flybar, that is to increase the response, not rates of the flybar, with a bell-bar only, the rates are the same, but delayed.

And yes, I have flown flybarless, on a t-rex, gp500, raptor-50, gohbee 90, and a synergy. (lets just say I was involed in some software testing)

As to your designs in your gallery, looks nice. Have you thought about adding washout arms to allow for more servo/swash travel for resolution, and reduced at the blade grips? (yes, you can have 3 blade washout arms)

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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08-08-2007 05:02 PM  10 years agoPost 14
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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Portblock,

you said
by not allowing the helicopter to overtake the flybar, thus the heli is limited on its roll rate by the rate at wich the flybar rolls.
I said
the flybar acts to tame down the cyclic rate of the rotor disk by MAKING the rotor disk cyclic rate follow the cyclic rate of the flybar paddles.
Reads the same to me...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 08:21 PM  10 years agoPost 15
pgoelz

rrVeteran

Rochester MI

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When I was playing with a flybarless Piccolo, I used a teetering head design. The hub teetered on the mainshaft adapter, which extended above the hub and was threaded.

http://www.pgoelz.com/piccolo_collective01.html

By placing a piece of rubber tubing over the portion above the hub and then squashing it with a screw and washer I could change the teeter damping easily over a wide range.

What I found was that the teeter damping made a BIG difference to the control authority. By changing the damping I could go from so sluggish it was hard to control.... but VERY stable.... to so quick it was scary. More (stiffer) damping = slower control and more stability.

A Trex conversion does not seem to allow easy adjustment of the damping.

Paul Goelz
Rochester MI USA
http://www.pgoelz.com

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08-08-2007 08:32 PM  10 years agoPost 16
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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What I found was that the teeter damping made a BIG difference to the control authority. By changing the damping I could go from so sluggish it was hard to control.... but VERY stable.... to so quick it was scary. More (stiffer) damping = slower control and more stability.

A Trex conversion does not seem to allow easy adjustment of the damping.
perhaps another reason why the flybarless trex i flew felt sluggish...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 08:38 PM  10 years agoPost 17
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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willy,

i never claimed to be any kind of an expert.

most people who are new here are NOT new to forums so should know that a quick 5 minute search with his EXACT SUBJECT LINE as a query would have netted him a vast amount of resources.

much more than this thread or all of its contributors could provide to him.

get back into your hole, who let you out dammit.

this took all of 15 key strokes and 2 mouse clicks!

http://www.runryder.com/search.htm?...sortby=lastpost

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 08:42 PM  10 years agoPost 18
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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and if everyone DID search first, there wouldnt be so many REPEAT posts.

Those first hand experiences you speak of.....aren't they contained in the topics just searched for????

yep...

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 08:55 PM  10 years agoPost 19
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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i did not intend for this to become a debate about whether or not to search or not and whether or not information contained therein is relevant....

I gave a brief synopsis about MY EXPERIENCE and then suggested in a not so subtle manner that the poster should do a search for more information.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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08-08-2007 08:59 PM  10 years agoPost 20
SSN Pru

rrElite Veteran

Taxachusetts

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You are only going to destroy this thread trying to justify your ego so best to let it go and just let the info roll.
Willy, have you contributed anything useful in the way of Flybarless setups for flying advice yet on this thread??/

NOPE!!

go back to offtopics and Mikado forums and stick to yourself.

Stupidity can be cured. Ignorance is for life!

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