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HelicopterOff Topics › A funny comparison on the Knight 3D and T-rex 600N​in RCHELI
08-06-2007 02:07 PM  10 years agoPost 21
Nashville

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Formerly Music City​now back home in​Sunny Florida

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Motions, could you be less specific?

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool

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08-06-2007 02:23 PM  10 years agoPost 22
Motions

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Tallahassee, FL

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Sorry, my original reply was not very supportive. I'm trying to be a nicer person.

It's a battle within.

_______
Scott M
Team Mikado USA

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08-06-2007 03:27 PM  10 years agoPost 23
Nashville

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Hey Motions I said that because I don't see your original post? Was it on this topic? Hmmmmmmm.

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool

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08-06-2007 11:32 PM  10 years agoPost 24
Jim-bob

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Little Hocking OH​USA

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[quote] However, IT'S MY OPINION that if cost is less of an object one might be more inclined to go with the more expensive 600N versus the Knight 3D based on a number of reasons. With that thinking in mind that same guy's "probably" going to be installing the more expensive 601 vs. 401, etc. I'm shaking my head on this one. Don't know if I'm doing a very fine job of explaining myself.

That is a completely logically reason for the difference in the equip. But...I have been looking thru my old magazines and I find some lower priced machines with some pretty good equip. Like a Goobee Stinger 50 with a 9303 xmitter. An Evo 90 (maybe the lowest priced 90 around) with a 9303. A Goobee Phazor elecric with a 9303.
Mike, I think what has got everyones attention is the rating the 600N got in the air, a perfect 5 out of 5. Add this to the fact that the two reviews were side by side in the mag and I think you can understand why some eyebrows were raised. Again I will say that I have flown both machines and if you are looking for a 50 size heli you cannot go wrong with either machine. There are some differences but in the end it all comes down to personnel preference. I myself at this point in my skill level prefer the Knight 3D. I may get a 600N at some point cause I might just decide too. The difference in the price is not a factor.
Really like your Magazine by the way.
Jim C.

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08-06-2007 11:51 PM  10 years agoPost 25
Nashville

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As Mike said this has all been covered in another post in detail. And I agree both are great machines (but I am biased towards the 600n of course!)

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool

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08-07-2007 12:02 AM  10 years agoPost 26
jonthefisherman

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Lebanon, Ohio-USA

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Ok, I just read some posts on another forum concerning this thread by me and Id like to make a couple things clear. Iam a totally new to this hobby as Ive had an interest in it just in the last 3 or so weeks. Secondly, I was thrilled when I saw the magazine at krogers because Ive heard helicopter flying is not very popular in this area.

So Iam not brand loyal to anyone. I was looking for some data in the articles that supported what others have said about these two helicopters that being that the knight is just as good if not better and cheaper. I think that the articles may just have proved that point in a way.

If RC-Heli says there was no bias by the authors I believe them but if your writing an article for your customers(the readers) in the market for either helicopter you should make the testing a little more level handed and scientific. I can spend all day and night reading forums like these about what guys fly and how they have their helis setup and it only costs me time. I just expected more from professionals.

I'll no doubt buy the magazine again as I stated above Iam really excited someone sells an RC heli magazine here locally. Even though I didnt get the comparative articles I wanted to see I think the articles did help me make my decision and just bought a used Knight sport. Not as fancy as a 3D but it gets great reviews. Plenty of getup for a NOOB

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08-07-2007 12:12 AM  10 years agoPost 27
DS 8717

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Welcome to RunRyder

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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08-07-2007 12:19 AM  10 years agoPost 28
Jim-bob

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Little Hocking OH​USA

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Well said 10X

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08-07-2007 12:55 AM  10 years agoPost 29
MikeV

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Chino Hills, CA

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Welcome John, if we had any part in your deciding to get into this great hobby then I'm very proud. If we didn't, oh well, lol. Thanks for reading. Anyway. Our Authors do a very good job of differentiating flight characteristics of a helicopter because of the helicopter dynamics rather than other factors, such as radio, servos, blades, engine, etc. I'm comfortable with saying that when you read a review in RC Heli you're getting a true and accurate account of the helicopters flight performance, not of the gear. At some point the buying public/our readers have to have some faith in the reviewer that he's doing a good job. If he isn't, the market will determine that. RC Heli is the world's best selling RC helicopter magazine. If don't do a good job then readers will speak by not buying the magazine. We also welcome this type or examination, it gets a little tiring sometimes on this end, especially when it's the same old crowd (not here yet ) with the same old complaint. But it comes with the job and it's good that our feet are held to the fire.

As for the scientific method being used, flight performance is subjective. Just as there are various judges at a competition, with different scores, each review is an independent opinion. The only true way to use the scientific method, and testing strictly just the helicopter would be to use the same reviewer, using the same gear, with a small window of time when that gear could be deemed "new," using the same fuel, under the same atmospheric conditions, doing set maneuvers, being video tapped, timed, and compared against each other. And even then there would be variables that would just be impossible to control, wind speed, etc, I know this example might seem a bit outragous, and I don't mean to be sarcastic. But that would be the only way to limit other variables. As you could imagine, this would be nearly impossible. You'd see one review every so many months and it would be pretty boring.

John, we are professionals and take our jobs very seriously. We choose gear carefully and set helicopters up how we think the average pilot would. Sure, you can find some discrepencies, or times when "higher" end gear was used on one comparable kit versus another. If there's ever a point where we feel the gear chosen has had a detrimental impact on a helicopter's rating we've disclosed, discussed, and often times replaced the gear in the kit being reviewed before making a final conclusion. A perfect example is in next month's review of the Esky Esmart.

Welcome again to the hobby, I hope you enjoy it. Thanks for reading our magazine.

Mike

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08-07-2007 01:26 AM  10 years agoPost 30
DS 8717

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I'm amazed no one told to buy a Raptor.

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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08-07-2007 02:16 AM  10 years agoPost 31
Motions

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Tallahassee, FL

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At some point the buying public/our readers have to have some faith in the reviewer that he's doing a good job. If he isn't, the market will determine that. RC Heli is the world's best selling RC helicopter magazine. If don't do a good job then readers will speak by not buying the magazine.
Mike, you have to understand that 90% of the people reading the magazine are completely new to the hobby so they won't know a bad review from an honest and accurate one. There's a very large amount of experienced pilots that grab the magazine out of the trash can at the local flying fields and giggle at the reviews and content because they know better. Yes, the magazine is focused on newcomers to the hobby but that shouldn't be taken advantage of. If you had experienced builders/pilots giving tips and writing reviews, the editorials would be so much better and accurate, and you might even broach the "experienced pilot" magazine market. A focus on quality and beneficial content should be the mission statement, not "We sell more magazines than anybody".

Yeah, well, I'm only on step 3 of the 12 step program but I'm getting nicer.

_______
Scott M
Team Mikado USA

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08-07-2007 04:21 AM  10 years agoPost 32
MikeV

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Chino Hills, CA

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Scott, obviuosly we're all entitled to our opinions. With that said I don't think it's being nicer you need to work on.

Every month, every issue of RC Heli that hits the stands is read by thousands of helicopter pilots with varying degrees of experience. Yes, a large number of them are beginners (a much smaller percentage that you asert), many consider themselves sportsmen, and some consider themselves experts (like yourself). And every month our readership, this cross section of the hobby brings to our attention any errors, mistakes, or differing opinions. When we have made errors we've had no problem reporting the error and correcting them for our readers in the following issues. Nobody is imune from making mistakes, hell the Wall Street Journal has a little section in every issue with the errors from the previous day's paper. When there are differing opinions on topics we report on many times their debated on this very forum or others around the web. Again, if we've been proven to have made an error in reporting we've corrected ourselves (blade tracking, piston locking tool Issue 1).

We are held to this standard each and every month, I'm curious who are these "very large number of experienced pilots" that grab the magazine out of the "trash can" and giggle? I'm not sure Tmoore and AceDude count as a "very large number." Can you give me 5 or 6 legitimate examples (typos don't count) in the past year (about 160,000 words that we've put in print) of errors that would make "experienced pilots giggle?"

The magazine is written by "experienced pilots." However, broaching the experienced pilot magazine market is not on our agenda. You guys know everything and don't "buy" magazine, you pick them out of the garbage, remember

We DO NOT take advantage of our readers. Every month we aim to inform and educate with accurate information.

Mike V

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08-07-2007 04:28 AM  10 years agoPost 33
4eye

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Honolulu

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"Mike, you have to understand that 90% of the people reading the magazine are completely new to the hobby..."

Do you get your facts from the same people that Bill O'reilly does?

Just kidding but I like the way that people spout percentages right off the top of their heads without some real facts or statistics to back it up.

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08-07-2007 05:11 AM  10 years agoPost 34
Nashville

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Formerly Music City​now back home in​Sunny Florida

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the "good" pilots grab it out of the trash and giggle. I'm sure glad I don't fly at your frickin' nasty a$$ club. Another rr member added to my ignore list. Keep up the tremendous work Mike!

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool

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08-07-2007 06:32 AM  10 years agoPost 35
jonthefisherman

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Lebanon, Ohio-USA

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Thanks for the response Mike.
As for the scientific method being used, flight performance is subjective. Just as there are various judges at a competition, with different scores, each review is an independent opinion. The only true way to use the scientific method, and testing strictly just the helicopter would be to use the same reviewer, using the same gear, with a small window of time when that gear could be deemed "new," using the same fuel, under the same atmospheric conditions, doing set maneuvers, being video tapped, timed, and compared against each other. And even then there would be variables that would just be impossible to control, wind speed, etc, I know this example might seem a bit outragous, and I don't mean to be sarcastic. But that would be the only way to limit other variables. As you could imagine, this would be nearly impossible. You'd see one review every so many months and it would be pretty boring.
I wouldnt care if every testing parameter were concise and equal so much as it was written by someone who was mostly unbiased and used roughly the same gear for each helicopter. That just doesnt seem too much to ask. As prospective helicopter buyer having one unbiased author setup and fly both helis is way more valuable to me than two different authors with different gear and skill levels.

Being new to this hobby and not knowing much at all I dont know how big of a deal it would be that the T-rex's canopy grommets and dampers wear out quickly or that the autorotation bearing seizes up. I can tell you though that If I have to order and wait on new parts to fly again Im going to be a little more upset than a scale of 4 with 5 being completely happy. Add to the fact this kit costs about $150 more than the knight I would expect better parts. Given that the durability rating still received a 4 Id have to assume those parts on not key to its overall operation.

The knight scored a 2 on instructions and really hurt its rating average. Now, I can get online and find several in depth websites with setup instructions. I dont have to order new and better directions from my local hobby shop. So being a noob Id say the parts durability are more of an issue to me than instructions quality. Id wager this is more true for an experienced helicopter enthusiast.

I think a comparative article between 50 sized helis would be very valuable to new readers. It may not be popular to some vendors of helicopters that scored low but it would greatly benefit the newcomers.

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08-07-2007 12:21 PM  10 years agoPost 36
DS 8717

rrProfessor

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I have to agree with Scott,Different equipment will make the heli fly different. How a person flys makes a difference on the set up also.
If your believing the failure rate of parts listed in RunRyder you are in for rude awakening,half the posters are self proclaimed experts with 6 monthes experience. I have read the magazine an would like to know where the worlds best selling magazine rating came from?

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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08-07-2007 04:52 PM  10 years agoPost 37
MikeV

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Chino Hills, CA

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Jon, thank you also for the reply. I'm always a bit apprehensive to respond, just because I don't want to come off as taking things personal, or looking childish. We're not immune from being called out, in fact I welcome it. Our goal is always to make the next issue better than the last. So the insight being shared, although I might not agree, is valuable and appreciated.

Every review written by the same author using nearly the same gear would just not be feasible. When we do a "Shootout" article, which we do have planned, we will have a panel of testers using equally equipped helis. Although our regular monthly reviews are not that type of article. The review model we use is much like you would find in an automotive magazine. Automotive magazines have been around a long time and have undergone plenty of scrutiny over the years. Respected magazines like Road & Track, Car and Driver, etc., test comparable vehicles on different roads, written by different authors, under different conditions, and are able to come up with subjective conclusions that are examined and scrutinized by their readers as well. A good test driver, like a good test pilot, can discern performance traits of the car/helicopter versus the tires/blades, etc. That is the model we use, not Consumer Reports, which is closer to what you're looking for.

MR10X, I'm in the publishing business, this is what I do for a living. It's my job to know how many copies our competitors sell, and we state with certainty every month on our cover that our magazine is the world's best selling helicopter magazine. We've been making that claim for over a year now. Until someone proves otherwise or attempts to make the same claim, it stands.

Mike V

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08-07-2007 05:23 PM  10 years agoPost 38
DS 8717

rrProfessor

Here wishing i was​somewhere else

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MR10X, I'm in the publishing business, this is what I do for a living. It's my job to know how many copies our competitors sell, and we state with certainty every month on our cover that our magazine is the world's best selling helicopter magazine. We've been making that claim for over a year now. Until someone proves otherwise or attempts to make the same claim, it stands.
When you say sell,are these subscriptions or do these include copies that sit on store shelves and are never sold to anyone.DOUG

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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08-07-2007 05:24 PM  10 years agoPost 39
MikeV

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Chino Hills, CA

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Doug, we make the claim best "selling." This means paid readers, newsstand, hobby shops, subscriptions all together. This doesn't include the unsold copies. Thanks for asking.

Mike V

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08-07-2007 07:44 PM  10 years agoPost 40
DS 8717

rrProfessor

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Doug, we make the claim best "selling." This means paid readers, newsstand, hobby shops, subscriptions all together. This doesn't include the unsold copies. Thanks for asking.

Mike V
Thats just what i thought,thats why the rest of the mag is trash.

YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE..IF YOU LIVE IT RIGHT THATS ALL YOU NEED

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HelicopterOff Topics › A funny comparison on the Knight 3D and T-rex 600N​in RCHELI
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