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HelicopterAerial Photography and Video › Yet another Slow Stick For AP Thread
03-18-2009 03:19 AM  8 years agoPost 1441
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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What are your opinions on doing flaps?

I have enough room on my wing now, and an extra servo. I'd probably keep them on the small side rather than risking making them too big.

dan
Guido44,
What are you wanting the flaps for or to allow you to do ?

In general: Flaps increase drag and increase the net maximum lift coefficient of the wing and decrease the stalling speed of the wing.

Depending on the angle of deployment and size , general use is for short take off and short landing assist.

I use flaperons at variable angle 5-10 degs down in some of my gliders to assist in thermal lift ....with rudder and elevator mix on my throttle stick.. but you would need to have this sent up on a variable switch unless you use the 3position flap switch but then that will be fixed travel.
I use them in reverse as spoilerons to 30-45 deg for bleeding off speed for landing..
The Flaps and Ailerons working in opposite directions = crow or butterfly braking.
I suspect you are asking about flaps and not flaperons

I think there was some postings back aways on this.. personally I think there is enough to do in AP flying without having to control flaps and if not set up correctly and deployed in the right circumstances.. it could spell disaster

Richard

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03-18-2009 03:35 AM  8 years agoPost 1442
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago,​Illinois

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For now, I'm not going to use the flaps.

I need to get the project done and flying. Let's just say I'm behind schedule enough already.

I did increase the length of my ailerons. They seemed too short for the 80" wing.

I just have to attach my wing servos and hardware and I'll be done!

Thanks.

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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03-18-2009 04:18 AM  8 years agoPost 1443
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova​Scotia, Canada

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Richard

I do agree with you that flaps are not the best thing to have, but flaperons are and if they are set up correctly they can give us useful operation. The important thing to remember is as you enter slow flight setup the aircraft will get sluggish because flight control becomes less efficient.

I have done some experimenting with this set on my little foam J3. If you can achieve the proper mix of flight control in puts, you will have some favourable result.

Aileron mixed with rudder, Aileron mixed with flaps and flaps mixed with elevator. Is best to start small mix and work up. Find the sweet spot and pay attention to the power lever position required to maintain flight. I use the three position flap switch first position mild and I still have good aileron control. The second potion is full flaps and although it is possible to fly the nose is very high and roll axis is very sluggish. Higher power is required to maintain altitude.

Hard job competing with gravity.

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03-18-2009 04:21 AM  8 years agoPost 1444
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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I would have to say... It's a slowstick, KISS, Keep it simple...... Get it flying, get familiar with it flight characteristics and improve from there.

Troy

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03-18-2009 04:32 AM  8 years agoPost 1445
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova​Scotia, Canada

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Troy

KISS LOL!

I hope it will fly. At this point I have no idea

Reality sets in

Hard job competing with gravity.

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03-18-2009 05:11 AM  8 years agoPost 1446
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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Well Guys,
It looks as if we have all agreed on one thing the "KISS" method.. and then as your AP flying improves the addition of little adjustments along the way to see if you can gain improvements.

We are after all trying to fly slow.. with carrying a good pay load and stability with a certain amount of control for good framing. All of this combines with the condition you are trying to fly in..
EG: Kevo... had to start to look at aileron due to the wind issue.

I started VR first about 3 years ago but got side tracked to Slope and glider flying from power and electric park flying.

Firstly I was amazed an the accuracy and build standards that slope requires.. then on to the need for very accurate CG setting..
Some of my old mate from power still ask you still flying those slope planes.. The "Toys"
I can tell you that flying slope and being fair to good at it is a real challenge and makes you most definitely a better power flyer You really now have to start to understand what influences are placed on your plane under different conditions...
A plane with a motor up the front or back is a lot easier.
don't get me wrong I still love to fly power but what I have learned over the past 2 years flying slope has been a real eye opener...
It's just you and mother nature and that it.. but from this you can learn what airfoils do and how they react..
I use flaperons a lot and as long as the "Flap travel" never overrides the aileron travel you will still be able to maintain a level of control.
I even play with differential both +pos and -neg up to 50% .. depending on the foil and the inbuilt reflex at the TE.
but to get to this level of understanding I had to be able to know what I wanted to do and why and what was need to get it.. and the only thing that can give you that is "Stick Time" experience... the main reason for the "KISS" method it works...

Richard

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03-18-2009 05:29 AM  8 years agoPost 1447
KarbonBird

rrKey Veteran

Australia

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I looked into putting a similar rig together but have not been able to source the basic "slowstick" wing and tail setup locally or online.

Anyone know of a recommended supplier of these components?

TIA

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03-18-2009 06:04 AM  8 years agoPost 1448
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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KarbonBird,
Rang Stewie from the H-Store in Sydney he has a few left in stock,
and does postage...

http://www.hstore.com.au/hstore.asp
Description
Click description below for further details Price
Product Image GWS Slowstick with EPS400C Power System
ID: SLOWSTICK-EPS With Motor Prop & Gear System $83.00

A post further back about a 1 or 2 pages I put a link for the 7X8mm cabon tube..if you want to go down that part...

H-store also has the e-flite 480 and the BL-15 ,BL-32 brushless motors in stock as well.. you are looking at at least 250watts for a standard build if you are going to do AP with a digital camera 250 gms+

Richard

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03-18-2009 07:26 AM  8 years agoPost 1449
KarbonBird

rrKey Veteran

Australia

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Thanks Richard - will make contact ASAP.

Cheers

Rossco

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03-18-2009 08:39 AM  8 years agoPost 1450
talk the torque

rrApprentice

SA

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Troy you hit it right on the head KISS.

I have flaps on my plane but they went on much later. They are going to make zero to very little difference with making the plane fly better in any way. The secret is light weight and plenty of power. Then your ailerons will work, dont beat around the bush trying to get the perfect aileron size and flap combination etc... Flaps and other mixing are for very fine tuning of a plane. Infact one style will suit one pilot and not the other but weight and power make a huge differce... and we all agree in the direction, less weight and more power. You get that power not by adding more motor but by keeping the weight down. I think a 45degree climb out is what you should be looking for. I dont use flaps for take off nor for making the plane handle better at slow speeds. I tried and it made no difference. I only have flaps, used as crow braking, for steep landing approaches. It wont make a plane that is battling to get airborne any better.

Wow Dan that tailwheel was very heavy. My skid I think weighs less than 2g... although my plane is small.. haha but I'm not going to admit that

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03-18-2009 01:53 PM  8 years agoPost 1451
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago,​Illinois

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Hi Guys,

The main reason I considered flaps is because of my experience with my Hanger 9, Mustang trainer. There's an option for flaps on the plane, and it makes a BIG difference when landing and taking off.

I have no idea how they would work for this type of plane though. I'm still a rookie pilot really .... but good enough to snap a few photos.

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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03-18-2009 11:17 PM  8 years agoPost 1452
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Guido44 /Dan,
We must have been bored ... it may appear that your build was attacked on the basis that it needed the Jenny Graig diet" ...
maybe from a standard SS build, it was really a lot of extra work and done well it just went the other way by adding so much weight.
you have in fact got flaperons, just by the fact you are using X2 servos.. it's just a matter of setting that up in your TX and as "eyeinsky" and most of the others that are running X2 servos have flaperon ability.Just leave them off for the minute.
Get the diet under control.. and have her flying well .. with that CG nailed as close as you can. From here is when you look at how and if need changes that maybe need to improve for its stability /performance.
I have always found trying to set up too many areas leads to maximun frustration and not the best stability/performance..yes you'll get it flying but not at its best.
As for the X2 planes you mention their airfoils are such that they will benefit from flap but again not really necessary.
Some of the guys are doing 45 deg with the standard build and with a decent payloads onboard as well.
Keep up your ideas and your diet .. that is what this forum is all about.Pushing to the limits making what was just a cheapie park flier for beginners in to what you guys have done with the SS sofar. turning it into a good entry point AP plane.. and no real good reason to look for anything else to do the job.
Good luck on the next maiden (Grrrrr) the bikini version

Richard

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03-19-2009 04:12 AM  8 years agoPost 1453
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago,​Illinois

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Thanks Richard,

I must admit, I have spent a lot of time lately on this project.

I am, for now, FINISHED.

80" wing span, and 1 - 3 cell Lipo Battery.

I have also officially lost another .4 ozs.(12 grams) by moving the motor forward and cutting off the end of the boom.

Don't call Jenny Craig's agent just yet though. I moved my scale onto a hard surface. I was weighing it on the carpet before. My total weight is 1610 grams. (57 ozs.)

Not sure what more I can do to lighten the load. Down the road I will buy another Thunder Power lipo. They have an improved technology with a lighter weight AND more powerful battery.

On Friday evening I hope to be doing my 3rd maiden.

2 More PHOTOS. I put a 12 inch(30.5 cm) ruler on top of the wing for scale.

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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03-19-2009 03:03 PM  8 years agoPost 1454
Envision

rrVeteran

MI

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I think it'll fly, just don't do it with the camera on it this time. Have someone video it so we can see "IT" fly. What's her name anyway?

I do have an idea for your tail. Although it may add a couple grams. The tail wheel is in only foam, not sure what it would do on a hard landing or if it spun out on landing. If you have some of those carbon arrows left why not cut a piece to go between the booms. Use a dremel and cutoff wheel to cut a slot the full length (use tape to get a straight line) apply a small amount of glue to the foam and slide the carbon rod (slot) over it. This will both strengthen and protect it.

Troy

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03-19-2009 03:36 PM  8 years agoPost 1455
Guido44

rrApprentice

Near Chicago,​Illinois

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If I get the motivation to go buy that bit Troy, I just might do that.

I put a layer of packing tape across the leading edge of the wing. That will only help a little for transport and maybe if I hit some weeds or tall grass.

I am more concerned right now with my landing gear. I can tell already that it's bowing out too much from the weight. It's better, but if I come down hard, it'll stress the CF tubes too much.

I need a 4 foot(about 1 meter) piece of 5/32" (4 mm) piano wire. Everyone sells 36" inch pieces.

If I find it, I will keep it as one continuous piece. (over the top of the camera).

Anyone know where I can get a piece that long, without paying through the nose?

dan

http://www.danfarinastudios.com/

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03-20-2009 11:09 AM  8 years agoPost 1456
talk the torque

rrApprentice

SA

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You seem to have got a lot weight off Dan. Looking good

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03-21-2009 12:37 PM  8 years agoPost 1457
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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Guido44,
4mm wire. over a meter is a long run for 4mm.. and unless you have a few standoff to support you will get a lot of flex...
When I have had log runs on gliders I is use pull/pull wire system or
outer tube to carry the 4 mm wire to help with flex and at mid point I have used a piece of CF tube with an ID of around 4mm . score the wire with a file and use 5 min epoxy to joint the X2 length of about 1/5 -2" long.. allows for 1" of the 4mm wire to go into CF tube...
I also use this same method on 4/40 threaded rod to make really strong pushrods.. same hing on on a bigger scale 15kg servo ..1/4 planes.

Setup center with the servo and control surface clamped level.. place 4/40 rod connected to Servo and Horn..add the CF rod tube and epoxy the lot together bingo..let set nearly zero trimming needed.only way to break it is to hit it with a hammer. and NO flex. Another is to over lap By 1" and solder.. cover join with heat shrink and CA as a backup.. just leave room in the outer tube to miss the thicker spot of the push rod.. and last but not a real option for you due to weight is to use a wood dowel.. add the wire in each end of the length you need.. make a 90deg bend in the wire.. 4mm hole in the dowel each end and grove for the wire about 2" in from end.. CA and heat shrink.. old day we use to use the cotton and lacquer link when you put guilds on a fish rod..
Should be enough options to get the job done.....

Now I have a problem. ?? just got the SS out today and completed the repairs from 12 months ago when I bent about 1 and 1/2 " of the boom from a nose crash I just cut it OFF and have added the new E-flite 480 so all left to do is the ailerons and wire ties all the bit up out of the way.. this is 1 hours work and finished ready for the second maiden ,just a standard build no camera, not nothing for the minute just the SS... MAJOR problem I had a similar issue last time and crashed With a 480 motor now added and the 2200mAh up the front.. then the wing then the Elev and Rudd servo the CG is at 2" from LE I will have to add nearly a house brick on the tail to pull the CG back to 5" from LE ? anybody had this problem.. I guess I could move the battery under the wing and way to the back of the boom... But that is where I wanted to add the cam ( NOT the Canon G 9 Never on a standard SS build ) later.. maybe just the video cam and 2.4 Tx to ground station..and the FMA
Just want to get this up and flying first.. have another to build still in box.
So do I add weight to the tail or move the battery back as far and see if I can get the CG at 5" from LE only using the battery placement for the moment... remember this is a straight SS build even with the 12 deg dihedral ... and the under carriage... Straight "STOCK SS" for the moment
you guys running I guess APC's 11X7 props.. or even the APC slow Flyrt 10X4.7.. or even the SF GWS 10X5 ?? remember no weight..Stock.
Thx's
Richard

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03-21-2009 01:11 PM  8 years agoPost 1458
RichardVRFlyer

rrNovice

Sydney,Australia

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Sorry guys,
That was a DUMB question... I must have been having a seniors moment
I'll put the battery under the wing.. for now that will solve the issue of at least flying the SS stock
Richard

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03-21-2009 02:35 PM  8 years agoPost 1459
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova​Scotia, Canada

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Dan

I assume you are using the wire for aileron control? I would just get two sub micro servos say 9g or 12g and just tape them to the under side of the wing near the aileron horn. Then your link will be 2" or 3" long. This is a lot less mechanical rigging. Then when you decide to add flaperon all you have to change is the programming in your radio. I would suggest that you use another channel not a Y cord. It will give two advantages reduce servo load by 1/2 and fail safe control of at least one of your Flaperons.

Cheers Jerry

Hard job competing with gravity.

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03-21-2009 02:59 PM  8 years agoPost 1460
eyeinsky

rrVeteran

Fall River, Nova​Scotia, Canada

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Rchard

When I design an AC I first look at planning the loads; motor, battery and Camera. These are the major factors. For instance take my current build, you will see even though the AC has short nose. I have mounted all the weight C of M about 2" to 3" fwd of the leading edge of the wing. This small adjustment of camera gymble will give the correct C of G.

Now for test flights, I will replace the camera load with a ballast for obvious reasons.

Jerry

Hard job competing with gravity.

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