RunRyder RC
 17  Topic Subscribe
WATCH
 5 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 7405 views
01-27-2007 09:12 PM  10 years agoPost 1
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

well my plan is to start a business doing AP over the summer.

i do realize that there are regulations governing this type of practice, so can anyone tell me what things i need to get/look for? im reading on the TC website about the regulations, but i dont think i fully understand them.

I know i need a SFOC for every flight i preform, but what else is necessary, and how do i go about obtaining an SFOC.

I also read that TC requires certain criteria to be met in relation to the aircraft. I plan on using a TT raptor 50, will that meet their requirements?

they mention redundancy, i'm assuming something like adding dual fuel tanks and dual feeds with dual batteries type of deal, and i plan on using a DX7 to control the heli and a 72mhz system for the camera equipment.

All this has to be by the book because i plan on starting this business with a summer business grant from the government, how hard would you say this is to accomplish?

i have started reading http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/g...d/section2.htm, does anyone else have more reading i could do?

what type of things do you have your aircraft setup for for AP in canada?

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 05:23 AM  10 years agoPost 2
Mark222

rrApprentice

Kelowna, B.C. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

hydravien

First off, I will say from experience that obtaining Transport Canada's authorization, for this type of business is possible.

The toughest part is getting started. It was a lot of paper work but I'm glad to have completed it. My relationship with Transport Canada is now a good one, it's also great to know that all of my flights are legal.

You need to call Transport Canada right away and let them know about your business plans. They will be able to put you in contact with an aviation inspector who will guide you through the process of obtaining your authorizations.

It is important to get the ball rolling soon so thet you can be ready in time for the spring rush. There is not enough information available on the website. Your next step is to make some phone calls.

Your process may be different than mine was.
Realize, this is a relatively new industry in Canada. There are no industry specific regulations for us at this time. Each time TC does an AP application, more knowledge is gained for their data base. So this process of certification is now evolving, as Transport Canada learns more about the operating considerations unique to our industry.

My experience with TC was very positive.
Be prepared to compile some detailed documentation about your flying experience and skills, about the equipment you plan to use and why you chose that equipment.

They will want to know about your flight procedures and safety practices. How will you control the public? Do you have a plan in case of an engine out or other equipment failure? What do you plan to do if someone gets hurt? There will be many other questions for you to consider. Each application is examined on a case by case basis.

Don't delay, give Transport Canada a call and get the ball rolling. This is the best time of year to do it, they get very busy in the summer and you want to have your SFOC process down pat long before then.

Wishing you well, I do hope this helps.

Mark G.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 12:41 PM  10 years agoPost 3
rabot

rrNovice

New Brunswick, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I am also starting an ap business this year here in New Brunswick. I have tried getting information from some Canadian AP people here on RR but have been met with some resistance to share. I don't think there is any need for a cloak of secrecy, this is a pretty big country and so far a very small industry! Mark, thanks for your openness.
Ultimately I will be seeking certification for the business rather then issuance of individual SOFC for each flight. This will be an interesting journey and I look forward to sharing with other ap Canadian entrepreneurs. Like you Hydravien, I have a lot of questions. Insurance is another requirement which I will have to address.

Robert

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 03:58 PM  10 years agoPost 4
racer944

rrApprentice

Greely, Ontario - Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Mark and Robert;

Thanks for sharing your info its very much appreciated and will be helpful for those of us contemplating starting up similar operations in our respective areas.

I look forward to hearing more when appropriate...

Best Regards;
Eric

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 06:56 PM  10 years agoPost 5
Mark222

rrApprentice

Kelowna, B.C. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Robert

The Transport Canada aviation inpector in your area will determine how they want to process your particular request for remotely piloted AP approvals.

After you satisfy Transport Canada with your background info, equipment info and all other info requested, they will probably start with having you apply for a seperate SFOC for each job location.

In my case my first SFOC's were good for one location only and each one was valid for several weeks to allow for weather delays. Where you have monthly construction progress jobs the SFOC can be written to be active for several months at a time. They can allow for multiple flights per location as well. So you can see they are prepared to be somewhat flexible.

Transport Canada wants to help us do our jobs, they need to insure we are operating safely, while not endangering the public.

One word of advice is to be very thorough with any of your documentation presented to TC for approval. They want to know how you evaluate each job you are presented with. How you think it through is very important to them.

Once again don't delay in contacting Transport Canada, if you plan on starting this year. Call them right away to avoid delays later on when you get busy with your clients. This is the best time of year to get through the initial paperwork. The inspectors have far less time avaiable for us in the summer then they do now.

Mark G.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 07:25 PM  10 years agoPost 6
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

thanks Mark.

For the events in case of an engine failure, would that be something as simple as attempting to divert it away from yourselves and any others present, and having 'dedicated' emergency landing zones that are to be clear at all times?

I can understand about the batteries and redundancy that way, but I dont see how you would be able to do anything but divert your helicopter away from others and attempt to minimize damage to others' property.

In being detailed, I read about having a diagram of the area submitted with your proposal. I assume in that you would put things like 'no fly zones' and emergency areas?

Nick

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 07:27 PM  10 years agoPost 7
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

on the same note, is it possible for you to use your own homebuilt mount and not buy one of the professionally built ones?

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 07:43 PM  10 years agoPost 8
racer944

rrApprentice

Greely, Ontario - Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Guys;

How are you supposed to conduct a small AP business where you may have multiple different location shoots every other day (think real estate photos, private dwellings, etc)?

I find it hard to imagine that you would need to appply for an SFOC everytime you lift off for 10 minutes ... not really what I would call flexible.

Is there no provision to apply for a business operating permit that would cover you for a period of time (say renewable every year and would cover any location you operate at within a certain geographic boundary?

Cheers;
Eric

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 08:57 PM  10 years agoPost 9
Mark222

rrApprentice

Kelowna, B.C. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nick

Yes, you're on the right track with your thoughts. Show the takeoff area, hover areas and emergency landing areas. Talk about crowd control and what you are doing to handle onlookers.

I've submitted diagrams and sometimes photos with diagrams on them for my applications. I found Google Earth was invaluable in some areas. I also used existing city "aerial" ortho photos when available.

I make and use my own mounts. In the future, camera mounts may need to be certified but not at this time.

Eric

I had all of those same questions before I decided to take the bull by the horns and simply do what Transport Canada required me to do. I saw all those hurdles ahead of me but I knew if I wanted to operate legally, I had to get the ball rolling or I would miss out on a busy season.

I did not want to chance being caught without an SFOC and possibly being fined $1000 per flight. My insurance would also have been invalid without TC compliance. By the way, an AP flight begins the moment your skids leave the ground.

I've had several hours of discussion with the senior aviation inspector who has helped me with my operation. He has taught me a lot. My documentation has been added to the database in Ottawa where they are gathering information for this new industry.

Flexibility is in the eye of the beholder. What do I mean by that? First off, cooperate with TC and they will help you out. By going though the application process for the SFOC's, TC will learn more about what kind of person and what kind of operator you will be.

If you pass scrutiny and establish a good track record they may offer you an annual authorization. You need to prove youself first and that's only fair, the way I see it.

Focus on limitations and that's what you will encounter. Be flexible and that's what you will attract.

I know this information will be helpful to those who can recognize its worth.

Respectfully,
Mark G.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 09:20 PM  10 years agoPost 10
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Some more reading I've been doing states that you must apply more than 20 days prior to your flight date, would you say that this is accurate, ie, it will take them that long to process your request and issue you an SFOC?

Sorry for all the questions.. TC isn't open today and I'd like to have as much information as possible before contacting them.

Nick

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 09:27 PM  10 years agoPost 11
racer944

rrApprentice

Greely, Ontario - Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nick: Thanks for asking the question... good helpful thread for Canadian AP'ers! Note that I am located essentially in Ottawa, so if there is any thing you might need done in person with TC, just let me know, I would be glad to help you out...

Mark: Thanks!

I totally understand your points and I fully agree that safety, compliance with all regs. and proving yourself is desirable and absolutely necessary. I guess I'm just very surprised that we are not further ahead in Canada with our regulations. I guess I can see this when operating a 60lb industrial helicopter, but seems excessive for a small operation when doing low level residential still photos with a Trex 600 for example.

In any event, I would like to thank you and guys like you that are essentially paving the way for the industry in Canada and will likely help TC progress with their regs.

I also appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experiences, its very helpful to me...

Cheers;
Eric

P.S. Would you be open to a few more specific "business type" questions via PM or email as I progress with things over the next few months?

PM  EMAIL  Attn:RR  Quote
01-28-2007 09:41 PM  10 years agoPost 12
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

To me, the reason why we are not further ahead with regulations is that a UAV is classified any remote operated vehicle operated for profit. This includes full size UAV's (predator etc..) but it also includes our helicopters, since they are technically a UAV as we are operating them for a profit. Like Mark said, the industry is relatively new in Canada which is one of the main reasons they do not have more descriptive regulations around AP.

Mark:
Do you have any type of insurance that covers you in case of an accident? What should I be looking for in insurance?

Eric:
Thanks for the offer! I'll let you know if I need anything. I'd be more than happy to share notes or experiences regarding what it's like to get a business setup, though with all the support here it doesn't seem like it will be too bad.

Nick

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 01:27 AM  10 years agoPost 13
gjestico

rrApprentice

Vancouver, B.C.

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Insurance

The insurance question is most relevant. The issuing of an SFOC by TransCan requires that you have liability coverage in place.
Insurance for this can be very hard to find in Canada for an affordable price. I have heard quotes of $5000+ for insurance. Hard for a weekender to earn enough to justify that.
Any leads on this would be great. I just filled in a huge multi page form to be submitted to the underwriter in an attempt to get insurance affordably. We will see.

Greg

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 02:33 AM  10 years agoPost 14
Mark222

rrApprentice

Kelowna, B.C. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nick

Length of time for approvals can vary quite a bit, it all depends on TC's workload at the time and how well you put together your application information.

I initally submitted 5 pages of background info on my flying experience, equipment, safety practices and other info. My first application was approved in 2 days, I felt very fortunate about that!
Most of the apps took less than a week but there were a few that took several weeks. TC gets very busy in June, July and August, as the air show season picks up momentum and keeps them busy.

Yes, you must have liability insurance as one of the conditions of the SFOC, without insurance you don't fly.
What to look for in insurance?
That's a tough one, I've found it very difficult to find an insurer willing to provide a quote for this relatively unknown activity. I'm still looking for better rates than I'm now paying but a least I have coverage.

You are right, our helicopters are classed as UAV's but we must operate by maintaining line of sight with the air vehicle at all times. This is stated in the SFOC.

Currently TC is using existing UAV regs, fullsize helicopter taxi regs and MAAC regs as guidlines for us. Some of these regs need to be modified to take into account the size diffences with our models, as compared to fullsize.

Eric

We are lucky TC is not further ahead with their regulations for us. The reason I say that is this, we now have an opportunity to let TC know what we believe will work for us, in regards to regulations. I have already given them a number of my thoughts on this and more importantly I've been heard. This has positively impacted how my SFOC is written.

You brought up a good point, I realize there is a difference between a 60lb ship and a Trex 600 but both can cause very serious injury or worse, in the wrong hands. However, I am more likely to be wary of the operator with the less expensive gear because he probably has less experience in tough flying situations and he has much less to lose if something goes wrong. The commitment isn't as great. I've seen this over and over at the regular RC flying fields. Please realize this is a generalization, I don't paint everyone with the same brush, be wary, not all fliers operate safely.

In the future, TC may allow only models that have proven to be relible and constructed robustly enough to continue to be reliable in day to day AP applications. They could compile a list of accepted models which you would then have to choose from. They may require certification of each AP vehicle before allowing it to be used. These are some of the things that have surfaced in conversations with TC. There are a lot of unknowns right now but rest assured the regs will come. We have the chance now to give TC some input about our needs.

Greg

My insurance costs are crazy as you already know. Please let us know if you find something reasonable.

Thanks guys,
Mark G.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 02:55 AM  10 years agoPost 15
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Hmm it seems like this might not get off the ground if insurance is going to be that high..

Mark, if you dont mind me asking, what kind of costs are you putting out for insurance?

I know this type of practice is new and thus hard to insure, but if im unable to find affordable insurance for this my project won't get off the ground.

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 04:27 AM  10 years agoPost 16
Mark222

rrApprentice

Kelowna, B.C. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Nick

I wish I wasn't paying more than the $5000 per year mentioned by Greg but I am. My first year was $3200 but after 911 the rates went crazy.

There are now more companies in the insurance business than there were a couple of years ago, maybe one of us will get lucky and find a company that can give us more reasonable rates. I know some guys flying fullsize, who are paying less!

Good luck,
Mark G.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 05:53 AM  10 years agoPost 17
ericslife

rrApprentice

vancouver b.c. Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

gentlemen

Im glad to see this thread develop!!.
I had many mail me for Info and have provided them with the little i know, Never to hear from them again! so i got jaded as it felt one way.
Ive spoken to TC almost 5 years ago and at that point was the 2nd in Canada to do so, with regards to flying on a regular basis that is. till then it was just the movie guys from time to time.
As Gregg said a bit tough for the weekender to float the $5000 or more, and a bit much for me but i allways told any one who asked about TC in a effort to get the ball rolling like mark and another fellow have done in a very positive way, For the rest of us.
Last year I was contacted by TC from my local area rep and had a great conversation, even he was suprised I knew of them 3 -4years prior. They wanted me to know that my operation (even though it was shelved) fell under their jurisdication. But he wanted to her my thought's as well!! this was very positive to hear!!.
As Mark stated , this is in it's infancy and it can be moulded at this point so we have usable guidelines for the future!!.
For those of you who can do this full time, do, as it will be fun and profitable. And will pave the way for us younger guys who are still working beyond full time at a job that isint heli related. So when we have more time we will be able to follow in those footsteps.

Thanks Mark and others for going the distance now so others can follow easily in your experience.

Eric D

And my Vario might still be for sale if you contact me.

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 07:24 AM  10 years agoPost 18
BigguyOz

rrKey Veteran

Forster, New South Wales, Australia

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I wish the situation was as positive here in Australia. I was chatting to the CEO of a major full-size heli operator today, and he expressed disgust in the local equivalent of TC/FAA. He reckons they haven't got a clue and can't even manage their responsibilities inside the fence at airports, let alone out and about.

At present there seems to be no workable solution for legalising R/C AP in Australia

PM  EMAIL  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 07:52 AM  10 years agoPost 19
hydravien

rrApprentice

Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Ow I didn't want to hear that. It doesnt seem to be feasible to do AP here then.. The clientèle here isn't large enough to be able to pay for insurance costs alone.

If you can find an insurance broker thats cheaper, and insures you monthly (summer business) it might be feasible, but unfortunately, I can't afford costs that high. I understand though that AP is a high risk, and I wouldnt want to be caught flying AP without insurance, same as I wouldnt want to be caught driving without insurance.

I guess, for awhile at least, this will have to be put on the backburner, which is kinda bad because I would have liked doing this as a business.

Thanks for the information guy's I'll always remember this type of stuff, who knows maybe it will be more commonplace (and cheaper) next year

Nick

-Nick

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
01-29-2007 04:59 PM  10 years agoPost 20
rabot

rrNovice

New Brunswick, Canada

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Mark and Greg I appreciate you sharing your experiences with us new folks. I am a recently retired Canadian Air Force Officer and now plan to merge my professional knowledge and hobby experience to begin my aerial photography business.
I believe we are fortunate that TC is working with us to establish a safe industry. The main objectives for TC and us is to ensure Flight Safety and Airworthiness. Canadian aviation has always had a sterling reputation in these areas. We have a unique industry where at times we can be designers, maintainers, mission planners and operators. About the only thing remotely resembling this sort of aviation diversity would be in the home built aircraft area. With the rapid growth in this new industry it is just a matter of time until there is a significant incident or accident with our UAVs. It is our responsibility to prove our competence and professional conduct of our business. There will always be risks. Some risks can be mitigated to acceptable levels while others cannot. As Canada's airworthiness authority, TC must analyse the information we provide and determine if our operations fall within an acceptable risk level. These aircraft we are flying do not have a type certificate for airworthiness. Also, so far, there are no approved maintenance schedules for these machines. As an aerospace engineer my bailiwick was aircraft maintenance and airworthiness. Our little aircraft need to be maintained through periodic inspections as well as preflight maintenance and operational checks.
I have been sitting in the weeds for a couple of years now preparing my aircraft and practicing my flying skills in preparation to meet with TC. I wouldn't think of walking in with a have baked plan for how I intent to conduct my ap operations. I think this industry has a great deal of potential to provide an excellent cost effective service to our clients and a respectable revenue for the owners.
I hope we can continue to share information as it serves us all well to ensure that collectively TC sees this group as responsible aviators.

Robert

PM  EMAIL  HOMEPAGE  GALLERY  Attn:RR  Quote
WATCH
 5 pages [ <<    <    ( 1 )     2      3     NEXT    >> ] 7405 views
 Print TOPIC  Make Suggestion 

 17  Topic Subscribe

Saturday, December 16 - 3:40 am - Copyright © 2000-2017 RunRyder   EMAILEnable Cookies

Login Here
 New Subscriptions 
 Buddies Online