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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Miro the Wren/Predator Dead And Buried, It's ashes spread across virgin countryside.
01-24-2007 10:43 AM  10 years agoPost 1
Bell Bloke

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UK

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Well here is where I eat humble pie and say a big sorry to Duralite.
It would now seem fairly certain that the Duralite regulators had nothing to do with the lockouts that I had been suffering from these last few weeks.
As you may have read, I had been warned and read of some issues with these regulators and this coupled with identical symtoms to the ones I had read about and heard about I blamed them for my problems.
Also the fact that when I took them off the problem went away for 2 hours of logged flying, so I thought that it had to be them.
I then posted my findings here to hopefully warn and help others to be aware.
I always try and get stuff up here quickly but I don't just blame something here first without being sure of myself otherwise one tends to look a bit stupid, which is pretty much how I look now.
But 2 logged hours is alot of turbine flying!! How sure can you be?

As for the cause? Well I have absolutely no idea now, all the radio was new JR gear except the tail servo and giro. There are 3 link leads, all replaced, even the switches were replaced.
And it cant be metal to metal because we spotted the Futaba radio going into failsafe on the ground without anything running, trouble is it only did it twice in a 2 min period, not long enough to find the cause.

So now what?

Ps.The Wren engine did survive the crash, not bad considering it was doing 120,000rpm when it went into the ground (failsafe didn't shut it down in time as the Miro went in too quickly).
I later tore it out of the wreckage and even ran it up! Probably not a good idea but who cares anyway.

Looked into getting another Predator kit but it would appear they are very thin on the ground at the moment, except for mine which now covers a wide area. Maybe I should stick the engine in a boat!

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01-24-2007 11:21 AM  10 years agoPost 2
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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Ross, Hard luck mate, it's easier to recover from dry land
If you are serious about the boat I recently done a deal with a Dick Wallenger Wren derived turbine with one of Dicks gearboxs on the back, the gearbox is a work of art,ratio from driven turbine wheel to gearbox output shaft 7.75to1
Peter R

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01-24-2007 11:57 AM  10 years agoPost 3
WIRLYBIRD

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CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

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Bell, Sorry to hear about youe mishap,but is it not possible that there was or still is something transmiting close to your frequency at high power , therefore causing the lockouts???
Best regards,
Dave.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.

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01-24-2007 07:45 PM  10 years agoPost 4
Bell Bloke

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UK

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I don't know, the cheap little scanner shows nothing. You would think that it would be metal to metal or a bearing or something mechanicl but I still can't get past the fact that with the Futaba gear it was doing it on the ground. But outside interference has to be looked at however unlikely.

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01-25-2007 04:54 AM  10 years agoPost 5
seattle_helo

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Seattle, WA USA

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Bell, I am sorry to hear about that, man. It is a true shame. Fantastic the engine survived okay, though!

Intermittent, undiagnosed RF issues and lock-outs has to rank up there as one of the most frustrating potential issues we face flying RC models. So many variables, and if it was outside interference, you may never truly know what it was or where it came from. I am looking forward to switching all my gear to SS which will hopefully be the end of those kinds or worries.

nick

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01-25-2007 09:37 AM  10 years agoPost 6
Bell Bloke

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UK

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Hi seattle, whats SS?

I was wondering, if the engine was't earthed properly could this cause the problem? An friend told me that turbines build up static and where as the Wren is normally earthed through the gearbox, Miro's engine was not. This is because I have fitted a tiny gasket to the rear gearbox mount to drain the oil from. Could this be isolating the motor and allow static build up? This is getting despirate really...

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01-25-2007 09:51 AM  10 years agoPost 7
richie1967_uk

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London UK

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Hi Ross....Sorry for your loss, it may be that you never really know why it was behaving like that and why it finaly went in. One thing is for sure i dont suppose there are many Turbine helis with as many hours on them as Miro...as the old adage goes.."she had a good innings"

When i built my predator i had a few lock outs on the ground and one while hovering...I was also using futaba with the receiver powered by NiCads, I never did find the problem and in the end i replaced the predator with a Cuatro (David Owens conversion)...I now use Lipos with a Scott Gray converter and so far no problems....

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01-25-2007 11:56 AM  10 years agoPost 8
Autoeject

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Ashtabula, OH, USA

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Hi seattle, whats SS?
Spread Spectrum...a la DX-7.

Mark Webber
wai-rc.com
Spartan RC Distributor
Outrage Helicopters

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01-25-2007 01:41 PM  10 years agoPost 9
WIRLYBIRD

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CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

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Hi guy's, In all my helli flying life I've only used FM rx's , or in these modern times the Graupner FMsss , and i've posted before , that I'd rather battle with the interference which normally only lasts a few splits of the second , than have a lock out or fail safe.I know we all have our own preferences , but for myself I have never had that kind of crash , but have had many a glitched flight , and have survived them all!! Just more food for thought!!
Best regards,
Dave.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.

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01-25-2007 03:13 PM  10 years agoPost 10
Bell Bloke

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UK

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Yes I had thought about none PCM just to see if I could find the cause, or as Autoeject said try yet another bloody radio, It's not getting to the original cause, but it's interference that I'm suffering from on 35mhz then maybe the Spectrum maybe the answer.
Also it removes the future issue of metal to metal.
It's just the reason for it that's driving me crazy, because what ever it is won't have gone away.

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01-25-2007 04:37 PM  10 years agoPost 11
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Bell Bloke,

It has been noted with some Jet Aircraft, that the turbine can sometimes cause a static discharge, which can then cause the r/c to glitch or go into failsafe.

Whats the chances of this in the heli ?

modtron
Oxford UK

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01-25-2007 09:57 PM  10 years agoPost 12
coffman

rrApprentice

NL

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Someone told me it was illegal to fly a Turbine in UK without failsafe, is this true?

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01-25-2007 10:21 PM  10 years agoPost 13
coolice

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Northamptonshire, England

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Hey Ross,

I was so sorry to have heard of your mishap over the phone the other night. I hope that we can come up with a positive finding as to the cause of the crash as then we will be able to avoid it and it will also put your mind at rest.

Coffman has mentioned something which is very true I think, all Turbine aircraft in the UK need to have failsafe. Whether this ruling only needs to cover the throttle or whole aircraft I am not sure, but the previous (and last) Sanddown Show required failsafe for sure.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK
Midland Helicopters

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01-25-2007 10:38 PM  10 years agoPost 14
PETER ROB

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Devon UK

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illegal to fly a Turbine in UK without failsafe

coffman It is not illegal, it is a BMFA recomendation in their safety code, at a BMFA event the safety code has to be followed
Peter R

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01-26-2007 07:47 AM  10 years agoPost 15
RUFFYB

rrNovice

HERTFORDSHIRE UK.

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The type of engine is not the issue.
Any model over 7kg You are responsible for
any outcome. If you don't have a failsafe
set you could be open to prosecution.

you should read the bmfa handbook, the air navigation order
and CAA CAP 658.
SNIPPET FROM CAP 658

The main parts of the CAP 658 Code of Practice applying to models between 7 kg and 20 kg state that such models should only be flown:-

When the weather is suitable.

Clear of controlled airspace unless with ATC permission.

Clear of any aerodrome traffic zone unless with ATC permission.

Within sight of the operator at all times.

Well clear of any congested area of city, town or settlement. Not closer than 150 metres is suggested.

At least 50 metres clear of persons, vessels, vehicles or structures. This can be reduced to 30 metres for take off or landing. Other model operators and any assistants or officials may be within this distance; as may vessels, vehicles and structures under their control.

With a serviceable fail-safe mechanism incorporated.

With any load carried on the model secured.

In compliance with any other conditions such as bylaws.

With CAA permission if the flight is for commercial purposes.

We all tend to take alot for granted but should take a bit more notice!!

Regards, Gareth...

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01-26-2007 01:09 PM  10 years agoPost 16
Bell Bloke

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UK

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I'm still thinking that it might be something to do with the site. I mean does modern radio gear still suffer from outside interference these days?
If it is an outside source then it is not a one off, it's something that is there all of the time.
What I also can't get over is that the heli was only 25 feet away when it locked out, I mean that is pretty close.
And what about this static discharge theory that Modtron talked of,
How do you prevent it? Since writing that post I realised that the engine was earthed to the frame....through the bolts...DUH!!
Could the engine be generating a frequency in the hover that it does not flying around, by this I mean a critical rpm that causes a lock out.
Any thoughts?

I am now thinking that 2.4ghz has to be considered because if it's the site then it could happen anywhere, therefore if 2.4 solves the problem at this site then it's good for anywhere, in theory, he types in despiration shrugging his shoulders in dismay.
All the best Bell Bloke

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01-26-2007 01:29 PM  10 years agoPost 17
modtron

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Oxford. UK

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Hi Ross,

Regarding the static issue, this is what is printed on the BVM web site....

"The effect of static electricity build-up and discharge is a problem associated with large capacity fuel systems in low humidity conditions.
The electro-static charge is caused by the relative motion of two non-conductive materials such as fuel flowing through tubing, or fuel sloshing in an epoxy/Kevlar or plastic tank. The charge accumulation is greatly enabled by the lack of moisture in the air. The large fuel tanks and more powerful fuel pumping systems can accumulate 20,000+ volts. The discharge event can, and has on occasions, disabled the engine E.C.U. and even the R/C receiver.
BVM's first confirmed experience with this phenomena was with the prototype Ultra Bandit on an unusually dry day in October '05. The discharge occurred as the wheels left the ground. We had to repair the model.
Since low humidity is a rarity in Florida, it took us awhile to identify the problem and address the solution.

JetCat fixed it

The simple solution appears to be a fuel additive. The JetCat laboratory and BVM flight testing shows that a very small amount of this fluid added to Jet-A or Kerosene fuel solves the problem.

We also have added to our product line, anti-static fuel tubing in both 4mm and 6mm sizes. Use of the fuel tubing alone appears to suppress about 50% of the problem.
To be fully armed against the static discharge problem, you may want to include both defenses.
The anti-static additive is available in 1 ounce bottles, enough to treat 75 gallons of jet fuel. Simply add 2 cap full's of the fluid to 5 gallons of fuel.
If the treated fuel is not used for about 30 days, retreat it in the same manner.
There are available static electricity measuring devices available.
The hair on the back of your hand (and forearm) can be used as a measure as well."

Not saying this is your problem, but it does exist.

Products can be found in the Turbine section at .....

http://www.bvmjets.com

modtron
Oxford UK

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01-26-2007 01:30 PM  10 years agoPost 18
WIRLYBIRD

rrVeteran

CAPE TOWN / SOUTH AFRICA.

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I think all systems new , old, or still to come , have their pro's and con's,I think when they invent a new system , the they merely change the set of pro's and con's , some times for the worse.We must remember that society's needs are also changing , so that to days fix might in fact be to-morrows set back!!!!
best regards,
Dave.

WHAT GOES UP MUST SURELY COME DOWN.

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01-26-2007 07:54 PM  10 years agoPost 19
human213

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malibu

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Bell

Very sorry about your loss, but when your lip closes back, you knew
prospectively as well as retrospectively that any lock out was a no fly indication, and required reworking till rectified.

Given the high price you paid, I for one would hope you buckle up
and build a new ship, and perhaps you may want to consider the new JR SS being (rumored) to be introduced at Nurnberg. There is no question
the recent radio advances are tremendous gains, some of the biggest
since proportional r/c.

There is no one flying for any worthwhile amount that has not
had a bad earth contact, and I hope this will not stop you, and most fortunate was the engine recovery, so things could have been much worse..besides, boat driving is very dangerous....first you fall asleep, xmitter in hand, then you wake up, a dozen or more dead ducks eating bow, kids traumatized, animal control officers with tickets in hand...

Cheers,

Michael

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01-29-2007 10:43 AM  10 years agoPost 20
Bell Bloke

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UK

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Great and very funny post Human, first smile in days.......
+ you are right about the SS, I will get either JR or Futaba, who ever is first.

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HelicopterTurbine Helicopters › Miro the Wren/Predator Dead And Buried, It's ashes spread across virgin countryside.
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