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Other › TREX 600 TAIL WAG- Please Read- PROBLEM SOLVED !!!!
01-22-2007 04:40 PM  10 years agoPost 1
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Solution:

New T/R- WAG problem possible solution. Use this if your tail wags and the inner and outer thrust bearing retaining washers are the same size or to close. Even if it is free to move when not spinning, I believe it still binds at 20000 rpm.

1. Remove outer thrust bearing retaining washer on both sides. (The one with the small ID.
2. Grind down a few thousands as far as your want to go without going as far as the bearing groove. Make sure that the entire diameter is smaller. It does not need to be perfect. You just need to keep it from rubbing at high speed.
3. Clean Everything up.
4. Re-grease the bearing and washers.
5. Install the thrust bearing with open side toward the hub.
6. Put everthing back together.
7. Don't forget to add loctite where needed.
8. Adjust gain until no wag and make sure the tail still holds.

THANKS RR FOR ALL THE GREAT ADVICE!!!!

Align please fix this problem.

Previous

After two days of making just about every single possible adjustment you can make to try to keep the tail from wagging, I ended up swapping the upgraded tail grips back to the original tail grips as recommended by another post from RR from chopperman1. This solved the problem.

I don't think it is because of the size of the tail though even though this exacerbates the problem. With mine at least it seems as though there is excessive slop in the upgraded TR grips. The TR blades deflected close to 1/2 of an inch at the tip in the direction they are not suppose to. I am not sure but I think there might be a few of the upgraded tail blade holders with this problem causing multiple individuals to have this problem.

I noticed on my Raptor just one week ago that my tail was wagging and it was due to to much slope in the pitch change lever. After I replaced it the wagging went away. With the Trex 600 I think it is due to the new thrust bearing design. Maybe the tolerance of the bearings in the upgraded blade grips may be low. As recommended by chopperman1 I think I will try the 450SE main blade grip bearings in the TR blades. I have heard this may solve the problem as well.

So anyone from Align if you are reading this. Please let us all know how you intend on fixing this. Because if the original tail blade holder comes apart and the upgraded one has slop, it doesn't leave very many options for us.

Thanks,
Art K.

Please note: I have a Logitech 6100 gyro that I thought might be the problem, but it is not. It works fine at 6V and at 70% gain on the HH as I discovered after swapping the TR grips. I was down to 15% gain to try to solve this problem and it didn't go away until a reverted back to the stock tail grips.

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01-22-2007 07:35 PM  10 years agoPost 2
maddog72

rrApprentice

Gran Canaria

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Hi!

I had the effect, when i changed to the new tail. I had to reduce the sensitivity of the 401 from 100% (jr) to 75%. But the tail holds even better with this sensitivity than with the "old" tail on 100%.

Alo I fly more agressive but recharge less capacity to the rc-battery.

I think the servo needs less power for the new tail and so it's quicker. This seems to be the reason.

Markus

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01-22-2007 07:41 PM  10 years agoPost 3
caseyjholmes

rrElite Veteran

Portland, Oregon

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I also had to drop the gain a few points on my 600 when I added the thrust bearing tail last weekend. Still holds fine though now after the gain adjustment.

Anyone who watched me fly last weekend at OCHC saw that I had to land the 600 and adjust the gain before flying it. Then the tail worked fine.

I noticed the trex 600 plastic tail blades won't work with the new thrust bearing tail though. (they will rest in the thrust bearing channel funky)

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01-23-2007 03:00 AM  10 years agoPost 4
wolfcbr2003

rrApprentice

Washington

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ARTK I think I can shed some light for all of you.

The problem is the outside diameter of the thrust bearing furthest away from the hub. Its size is suppose to be smaller that the outside diameter of the inside one. The inside one is designed to be very tight in the grip and the outside one is designed to be move in the blade grip. I have installed 3 of these new hub and grips and on all three I have had to Dremel down aprox. 2 thousanths on the outside diameter of the outside thrust bearing race. This will fix the problem and stop it from hanging up in the blade grip. Understand that on all 3 of these they would move very smooth when mounted. It wasn't until the heli was spun up that centrifugal Force of the high speed of the tail would cause the rubbing from that bearing race. It was hard for me to belive also since I tried every combination for 3 hours to fix the problem and at the last resort I measured the outside diameters of both the inner and outter race and bingo they were the same. Not good. The one furthest from the hub should be a tad bit smaller in outter diameter allowing it to not rub on the inside of the blade grip.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

Marcus

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01-23-2007 03:17 AM  10 years agoPost 5
robl45

rrKey Veteran

Deerfield Beach, FL

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On the thrust bearing tail you need smaller tail blades I believe. They talked about it on the freak. like 92mm instead of 95mm.

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01-23-2007 03:17 AM  10 years agoPost 6
marc8090

rrElite Veteran

Long Island, N.Y.

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I too did not care for the "upgraded" tail grips with thrust bearings and am going to put the original grips back on. I lowered my gain 10% and the tail still wagged a little hear and there and didn't seem to hold any better, so back to the original setup I go.

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01-23-2007 04:13 AM  10 years agoPost 7
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Tail Grips

Thanks for the input.
At least I know I am not the only one.

Art K.

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01-23-2007 04:46 AM  10 years agoPost 8
wolfcbr2003

rrApprentice

Washington

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Thrust Bearing

It is the outside diameter of the outter race. Measure them and notice the inner and the outter have the same diameter. Very wrong. Measure the Main blade thrust bearing and you will notice that the inner race is 2 thousanths larger than the outter race. Once you dremel some off the outter diameter of the thrust bearing race it will work perfectly. Much more authority from the new tail. 10mm larger diameter on the distance form one blade tip to the other. I also told Willy at assurance about the issue also.

Cheers

Marcus

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01-23-2007 07:35 AM  10 years agoPost 9
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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With mine at least it seems as though there is excessive slop in the upgraded TR grips. The TR blades deflected close to 1/2 of an inch at the tip in the direction they are not suppose to.
Thats "by design" and its OK, wont be like that under heavy load (when it spinning fast).
On my L14 I can wiggle the blades even more, not a sign of wag with that setup.

Its probably like wolfcbr2003 says, or something else too.

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01-23-2007 01:58 PM  10 years agoPost 10
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Slop by design

Not so sure about the "by design theory". Do you work for Align?

I swapped my raptor tail slider lever when it was wagging with a new one that took out almost all the slop and the tail wag went away. For the Raptor the tail wag was only present during hard 3D and backward flight.

I removed the slop in the TR grips of the Trex 600 by reverting to the original ones and the tail wag went away.

I am not saying the tail wont hold with the slop in it but if you have hard heading lock like with a 611 or with a 6100 gyro I think this wag is amplified with high gain. You can probably reduce the wag with low gain; however, you are probably loosing some performance. Also with the TREX 600 the rotor disk is very wide due to the spacing in the upgraded tail and this probably makes the wag worse.

Last night I did try to press the thruss bearings down further by tightening the screws more. It seems like the thrust bearing is able to slip further down the spindle shaft. I had to really crank on it. This might eliviate the problem, the grips are much tighter now.

I am not discounting the outer diamter issue presented by wofcbr2003. I will try this if I still have a problem.

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01-23-2007 02:03 PM  10 years agoPost 11
robl45

rrKey Veteran

Deerfield Beach, FL

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has anyone tried changing the tail blades? This is well documented on the freak site.

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01-23-2007 02:05 PM  10 years agoPost 12
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Does I work for align, yeah right..

What I mean with "by design" is that Thrust bearrings are not as sturdy in sideways movement without load, thats why you feel no "slop" as you call it with the old using regular bearrings.

If you put load on the thrust bearring, you wont have that movement.
(and load you will get as soon as it start spinning, quite alot load actually)

Just saying that my Logo 14 has it too, however, no wag there whatsoever.

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01-23-2007 02:13 PM  10 years agoPost 13
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Sweden!!!

I like sweden.
I think this tail rotor was designed by the same crew that made the Vasa.

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01-23-2007 02:15 PM  10 years agoPost 14
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Yep, Align made that too

I agree that its a problem with the upgrade kit (I had wag with it too), but what I am saying is that its not due to the slop you feel if you move the tip of the blade, because under load there wont be any slop.

Ps: I went back to the old TR hub to fix the problem...

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01-23-2007 02:21 PM  10 years agoPost 15
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Sweden is great, one my favorite countries.

I have visited twice so far:

Stockholm
Gothenberg
Visby
Stramstadt

Very friendly country. I have two friends from Sweden that I studied with in graduate school.

Forgive the bad spelling.

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01-23-2007 04:48 PM  10 years agoPost 16
gullie667

rrVeteran

Brooklyn, NY

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Are you talking about slop left to right and not in pitch change? For example, like the EVO 50's tail design?

Infact has anyone tried an EVO 50 tail setup?

Helicopters - 1000 parts flying in formation.

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01-23-2007 05:09 PM  10 years agoPost 17
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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Yes slop Left to right- Not pitch change

Does the EVO 50 have a lot of left to right tail slop???

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01-23-2007 05:19 PM  10 years agoPost 18
APOPHIS

rrApprentice

New York - USA & Manchester UK

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Hey guys,

I agree with robl45, it has been advised on here and on other forums that with the new tail rotor assy, the tail blades have to reduced in size to 92mm.

With regards to the slop, if you check out most of the current machines with thrust raced tail assemblies you will find the 'slop', some more than others depending on the design.

One of the major ones is Miniature Aircraft, if you get their grips and twiddle them, you will see slop but it is designed that under spinning load the thrust bearing is doing it's job and very little load is transferdd to the radial bearings, were as with the original tail rotor assy the whole thrust load is transfered to the radial bearings.

Thanks!
Christian

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01-24-2007 01:51 AM  10 years agoPost 19
ArtK

rrVeteran

Temecula, Ca

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T/R with 92mm blades

I just tightened up the grips as much as possilble- It helped a little bit. Still wag, still very low gain 25% or less with wag.

I then installed 92mm blades- Still wag but less and very low gain.

I then installed my stock Raptor 85mm blades. Still wag but the least.

Nothing works. This TR setup has inherent flaws that are amplified by high gain, longer blades, & high performance gyro's. - I just dont know.

Original T/R with 95mm blades works great and I think I will examine bearing alternatives to upgrade that tail with.

Verdict is still out-

Though I think everyone is a little right.

Slop is bad. You can't convince me that it is OK. There is no reason why the radial bearing can't remove all the slop. The thrust bearing should just do one function only and thats keep normal forces off the radial bearings. Radial bearings should offer a smooth slop free rotation.

Smaller blades are less sensitive to wag issues. This is definetly true as well.

Outer thrust bearing diameter size being to large- I am still out on, but maybe that is what is going on.

Thanks RR.

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01-24-2007 08:36 AM  10 years agoPost 20
MrMel

rrProfessor

Gotland

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Just a question, have you tried what has been suggested in other threads? (take out, clean, reverse, re-grease?)

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