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11-26-2006 02:31 AM  11 years agoPost 21
Jason Chow

rrVeteran

La Crescenta, CA

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nice, ill try and post some vids as well.

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11-26-2006 02:46 AM  11 years agoPost 22
lowflyer101

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garden grove, CA

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any simple /easy way to learn chao without end up in real CHAO ?

<-freedoom flyer->

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11-26-2006 03:18 AM  11 years agoPost 23
3D WASP

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Home of the Reagan Library, CA

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Any easy simple way to learn chaos? No. The method has been described, now the only thing left to do is PRACTICE, with enough time you will get the heli to piroflip around the mainshaft, i.e. very still, like alan szabo. It just takes time and practice.

Timing is everything

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11-26-2006 04:22 AM  11 years agoPost 24
caseyjholmes

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Portland, Oregon

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any simple /easy way to learn chao without end up in real CHAO ?
Get flips and piros normal and inverted down really good. Do flips normal and nose in forward and backward.

Now, do a half front flip. (from normal tail in)

Turn the tail with some left stick 180*. (or right, depending on your style and comfort)

You should now be tail in, inverted.

Pull back ele to do a back flip and end up nose in, right side up.

Now turn the tail again 180* with some left rudder stick.

This is a "piro flip".

Once you can do them very fast, you will "realize" chaos out of thin air.

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11-26-2006 05:45 AM  11 years agoPost 25
caseyjholmes

rrElite Veteran

Portland, Oregon

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Tic Tocs are probably the first critically collective management manoeuvres.

Flips and rolls are easy in comparison. I THINK I have them down now in the sim , and subject to weather blah blah, I need to get the stick time in!

Will look forward to your input on this move
For starters..

To practice tic tocs in real life, first start with half of a tail-in backflip. Get it inverted nose in and learn to hold it there.

Now flip all the way forward back to normal tail in and hold it.

KEep doing this untill you can do it perfect, while keeping on top of aileron and rudder so they don't drift.

Eventually, you can go from full 180* half flips, and start to angle the heli a bit more and more as you get quicker at it.

Starting with simple "half back, half forward" flips in real life. This will help to build up your pitch managment skills. After a while, you will be able to do them faster, and with more of an angle to turn them into tic tocs.

Once you can do them tail in, Then it's time to turn them sideways and work on them side-in, and extend them longer to make them into "rainbows" with more of an arc.

Don't worry about doing them super fast right away. Just do slow "low angle" back to front flips over and over untill you pick it up. They will speed up over time once you see how to keep them from falling using smooth pitch input.

Couldn't get any video of it today, nobody to film. Got all the heli's ready for tomorrow though Maybe I can find somone to video tape for me.

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11-26-2006 05:54 AM  11 years agoPost 26
Jason Chow

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La Crescenta, CA

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lowflyer, i can break it down into 4 steps for you. practice these four steps, and your golden, i guarantee you can do it after these four steps are learned. come to talk with me either at the store or next time i see you fly. i have to show you rather than explain.

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11-26-2006 06:11 AM  11 years agoPost 27
Two Left Thumbs

rrKey Veteran

Houston, Texas - USA

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Thanks Casey, I really appreciate you taking the time to make the videos. As an earlier post said, there is not much information on flying, just crash repair

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11-26-2006 08:22 AM  11 years agoPost 28
Rogan

rrApprentice

Houston, Scotland - UK

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Agreed, thanks.

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11-27-2006 12:25 AM  11 years agoPost 29
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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Get flips and piros normal and inverted down really good. Do flips normal and nose in forward and backward.

Now, do a half front flip. (from normal tail in)

Turn the tail with some left stick 180*. (or right, depending on your style and comfort)

You should now be tail in, inverted.

Pull back ele to do a back flip and end up nose in, right side up.

Now turn the tail again 180* with some left rudder stick.

This is a "piro flip".

Once you can do them very fast, you will "realize" chaos out of thin air.
Not exactly. Websters defines a pirouette as:

a rapid whirling about of the body; especially : a full turn on the toe or ball of one foot in ballet

The key here being a full turn. There is a big difference in a piroflip as most pilots know it and what Casey is describing. The piroflip at the least consists of one piro upright and one inverted if you do less like you do in some of your videos, you have, IMHO, a bit of a mess. A Chaos builds on the piroflip by forcing you to change the point in the circle that you initate the pirofilp by either 45 or 90 degrees in a continuous indexing of the start points.

If you look at some of the better videos from the 3D Masters or from the XFC as well as Alan Szabo Jr's video they are a very good representation of the basic motion that is seen in a piroflip. If you have RFG3, Pete Niotis has some great recordings that illustrate the correct method of doing piroflips.

Here's a thread that highlights some of the basic differences:
http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t275966p2/

TM

Delayed Response Operator Not Engaged

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11-27-2006 12:33 AM  11 years agoPost 30
Nashville

rrElite Veteran

Formerly Music City now back home in Sunny Florida

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Awesome information Casey. We appreciate you taking the time to help out your fellow pilots!

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool

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11-27-2006 01:43 AM  11 years agoPost 31
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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This site has been around a while but has a very good video section:

http://www.rchelicopterweb.com/Lear...arningToFly.htm

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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11-27-2006 02:06 AM  11 years agoPost 32
caseyjholmes

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Portland, Oregon

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There is a big difference in a piroflip as most pilots know it and what Casey is describing
True. But this is how I learned to do chaos. I Worked my way up to it rather than doing the whole thing right off the bat. I Can do a full piro per half flip no problem like I can a half piro per half flip. I just don't see how a full piro is closer to help learn it than a half of one. In the end, with enough practice, it starts to turn out the way it's ment to be done regardless.

Now I can do a half, full, double or tripple or more piros per half flip the way I learned it.

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11-27-2006 04:24 AM  11 years agoPost 33
Jason Chow

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La Crescenta, CA

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its true, my method for doing caos is breaking into steps (different piro flips. you break the caos into parts, then you practice those parts. i normally do like 4-5 steps. you do step 1, you do step 2, 3, 4, 5 all separately, then you slowly integrate step 1 with 2, then 2 with 3, then 3 with 4, 4 with 5, then you combine them all.

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11-27-2006 05:22 AM  11 years agoPost 34
kingair

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Utah - USA

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So, what are your steps?

There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."

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11-27-2006 12:42 PM  11 years agoPost 35
red_z06

rrProfessor

Dumont, NJ

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Here is how I started initially:

I counted piro rate "One. Two. Three." to determine my swirl rate.
After 3rd tail in, I jump in and start cw swirl with left rudder piro. This is what I call fake piro as there is no way you can correct for position along the way. But none the less it is piroflip if you want to do them bad.

I then started doing constant altitude no level transition fig 8s.
that means you don't level out when you cross from left to right circle. Basically it looks like 2 circles stuck together and touching at the tangent point only.

Most beginners do lazy stretched fig 8 as if you were to take rubber band between two index fingers and stretch a little and twist. They start out with level 45deg heading and enter a turn with anxiety to hurry and get back to level flying again. If you do two circle fig 8, there is no resting in between two halves of fig 8 so you are forced to learn balanced bank turn and learn to compensate pitch and elevator cyclic to be in the constant banked turn. While you are in the turn, if you see nose or tail (leading part) being droop lower than back end by more than 10-15deg, you are using too much collective. At this point (assuming you can maintain the turn at constant altitude), reduce collective and increase elev.
For forware fig 8, that means less positive pitch and pull elev stick. As you do this you will find out that heli starts to slow down a little but instead of plowing through the turn it will feel like it is floating.

After you do fig 8 four ways as described above, learn snake fig 8 as this is critical transitioning step toward piro flip.

Again maintain level altitude, and at transition, roll opposite to way you rolled previously so if you were upright left turn, you will enter inverted right turn.
Basically, you do left circle in upright and right circle in inverted.
When you have learned forward and backward snake 8 it is time to move onto piro circles. Actually left upright and right inverted piro circles. I would say do piro fig 8s in upright and inverted but to do piro flip the other side although good to do are not necessary.

Doing piro circle (at least 20-30deg bank) teaches you swirl cyclic correction at constant heading change.
I HIGHLY HIGHLY recommand putting neon colored 2x2 square tape on top and bottom so you can see the rotor disc vividly throughout the piro circle.

Once you can do piro circles upright and inverted, it is time to learn snake piro fig 8 where your transition should look like when you did the snake fig 8. The critical part you will learn is that at the transition, your swirl deflection(cyclic stick deflection) will increase and make it roll while piroing.

It is this transitioning from upright piro cicle to inverted is the KEY you need to feel and understand.

Once you learn to do snake piro fig 8, then start tightening the radius and you will end up with piro flip.

I guarantee that you will learn piro flip right way without suffering through trying to learn piro flip on its own.

Not only that you will already have mastered multi piro piroflip as well as single piro piro flip.

I credit Don Yoo JR rep for directing me toward learning fig 8s and Pete Niotis G3 virtual video for learning piro flips.

www.JustinJee.com

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11-27-2006 04:28 PM  11 years agoPost 36
caseyjholmes

rrElite Veteran

Portland, Oregon

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however you do it, the same basic goals exists. Make the heli piro at any rate while being able to flip the heli and mainatin hight. Weather it be half, single, double or tripple piros per half flip. The goal remains to fly the helicopter controlled while making it look totally out of control. (the reason it's called chaos) I'd suppose there are several ways to get there. I appreciate everyone adding their input

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11-27-2006 06:26 PM  11 years agoPost 37
vic20owner

rrApprentice

St. Pete, FL

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Just wanted to say I've been lurking on this thread and all of this info is very helpful. The videos are great, but the ongoing discussion following the videos is even more helpful. Thanks guys for taking the time to explain this stuff.

helicopter pilots beat the air into submission

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12-01-2006 01:04 AM  11 years agoPost 38
caseyjholmes

rrElite Veteran

Portland, Oregon

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How to video #3: Tic Tocs!

Beware, I am ranting and mumbling in the video, so the commentary is basically useless and fumbled. I offer this bit of advice instead..

Once you can do the normal required "before 3D flight" patterns, Do a half back flip and hold it there. Then do a half front flip. Ease into another half back flip, and then back to half front flip. Keep doing this slowly untill you grasp aileron and tail control during the half back and forward flips.

Once you get the feel of holding the heli in one place with aileron, rudder and elevator, the rest of the tic toc is learning them VERY slowly at first and start with simple half front/back flips. Over time, and quickly I might add, you will pick them up. They are one of the easiest tricks to do.

For this video, I used an aon motor with a 13T pinion. the day before, I Was flying the mega motor with a 13T pinion, and the mega motor kicks the hell out of the aon motor on 3 cells and 13T pinion, same everything. The mega takes the aon hands down

I'm used to the medusa motor with enough power to stand the rex on it's tail doing super tight tic tocs. This aon motor I Really had to struggle to keep the heli up! I need to order another medusa motor. Even the align 430L was better than the aon with a 13T pinion! I'm impressed

I will probably redo this video with a medusa very soon That looks like crap

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12-01-2006 01:26 AM  11 years agoPost 39
caseyjholmes

rrElite Veteran

Portland, Oregon

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And here is some footage of my 600 today. Learning a few new tricks every day..
http://www.holmesrc.com/files/Trex_600_11-30-06.wmv
That is a very fun helicopter, for sure
Carbon tail blades hold the tail much better than stock align plastics. Didn't get any blowouts today as hard as I tried. Came down a bit hard on my auto though

Did reversing piro tic tocs for a second there too!

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12-01-2006 01:50 AM  11 years agoPost 40
slider46

rrProfessor

Ocala Florida

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Well now I have to fire up the sim and practice the tic part of the tic toc LOL nice job flying Casey.....

Tom..... No "D" flying....

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