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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Engine Break-In
11-24-2006 05:07 PM  11 years agoPost 1
asong26

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I am in the process of breaking in the engine. Per John Garst's instructions, I am running a tank at a time w/ 45 minutes of break in between.

Initially, I've set both the high and low needle to 1 1/2 turns. It seems almost too rich at this point. The V2 muffler is drips oil (not spewing out) a drop every few seconds. I am using Lawnboy Ashless@ 4 oz. / gallon (Ozark Camper Fuel). Will switch to same ratio using Amsoil as soon the the left over fuels are burned away (2 gallons total)

I am not hovering this, due to a needed replacement tail gear. But I do find it adequate enough to run the engine for break-in. I am doing this on the ground @ flat-line pitch setting of -2.

The break-in procedure says to add more load each flight, so I will be adding .3 - .5 negative pitch per tank. Engine seems to be running smooth, but I did notice something really weird.

At mid-stick the engine throttles up just fine. But when I go beyond that, the throttle drops to what sounds like about 30 - 35% throttle. When this happens, I bring the throttle stick back down to about 45%. And at that throttle, engine bare runs idle. I've checked the throttle servo arm, and it's in the right position. Anywhere below 45% throttle, the engine dies.

At first I thought this could be due to the high needle being too rich. I've checked it, and it's and resetted the high needle at 1 1/2 turns. Does anyone here have any clue as to what might be happening? I am not sure exactly where the high and low needl transition points are. My gear ratio is 6.79 (88T / 13T pinion)

Also, when I was running my last tank at a higher throttle, I've tached the main rotor at 1480 rpms. At that blade speed w/ negative 2 pitch, is that too much load on the motor (sitting on the ground), or is it not enough for proper engine load / break-in.

One more thing: The temperature outside is at 62 degrees. I am running the engine under the shades behind the house...

For all you experienced gassers out there, please let me know if what I am doing is not safe for the engine nor the heli. Just waiting on parts (should get here by Wednesday), leveraging the free time to get this thing going..

Thanks.

Andrew

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11-24-2006 06:48 PM  11 years agoPost 2
andrewp28

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Your needles may be too rich. Close both to 1 and 3/8. When you switch to Amsoil, 4 oz. per gallon will be too high, I suggest 2.5/gal. I am not a fan of running in on the ground.

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11-25-2006 12:05 AM  11 years agoPost 3
FCM

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Don't run it on the ground. You will never get the engine loading correct or the mixture for that matter and run the risk of shaking the heli apart from all the ground resonance and unloaded engine.

Get it in a flyable condition, fly it and see how it is.

Paul.

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11-25-2006 12:15 AM  11 years agoPost 4
asong26

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Vibration was definitely there at mid-stick. The fuel in the tank was shaking violently (Have you seen the move perfect storm?)

At 70% throttle w/ -1.5 pitch, it ran pretty smooth, with almost no visible vibes. But, sometimes engine would bog down. After speaking with rcadd1ct about this, this is due to the foaming of the fuel, and air mixture in the carb. Also, my high end needle was a tad bit low. It's all ok now.

I am going to do this just once more using Amsoil @ 2.5 tomorrow for a tank or two at idle, ro 35% at max w/ 0% pitch. I think it should be alright at this level on the ground shouldn't it? It is a very grassy surface. Or is it stupid?

Andrew

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11-25-2006 01:36 AM  11 years agoPost 5
FCM

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It's stupid

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11-25-2006 01:39 AM  11 years agoPost 6
asong26

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Point clearly taken. I guess I should just wait it out until the parts arrive on Thursday.

Andrew

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11-25-2006 12:36 PM  11 years agoPost 7
avator

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I think running it on the ground with negative pitch is not a good thing to do. It puts alot of unnecessary stress on the machine. Wait until you get your parts and then fly it through break-in. Personally, I would also run the rotor speed faster than 1480 rpm's during break-in. You don't want to load it up too much during break-in.

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11-25-2006 01:33 PM  11 years agoPost 8
Christopher J

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In the Vario section some of us were discussing engine break in. Here a couple of post from Zach Sparks and myself on how we broke our engines in:

Zach's

You're gonna gets lots of different ideas here so be ready

When I broke in my G230RC I did it according to Bill Meadors recommendations. This was what I did and take it for what it is worth. My engine runs good and I am sticking to this plan, but there are a lot of different ideas so do what works best for you.

-Both needles at 1-3/8.
-Set your throttle curve LOW to start, something like 5,15,20,25,35. You'll start raising your curve after a couple of tanks.

-First tank start and idle the whole tank. Just let it run and use your trim to keep it up to idle. You can get your low curve point set during this period as well if you want to mess with it. Let the motor cool completely before next tank.

-Second tank move the collective up so blades at zero degrees to unload the head and motor and set your engine rpm to your target 1250 headspeed and let it run with motor and head unloaded like that for the whole tank. I spent the first quarter of this tank setting the tracking and when you eyeball the blades to where you are at zero degrees just go into your curve menu and adjust the headspeed by the curve point you are at and tach it to target headspeed. If you set your mid stick at 5 or 6 degrees and bottom at -5 or -6 you'll be right about the 1/4 stick #2 curve point. Let the motor cool completely before the next tank.

GOOD TIME TO RECHARGE

-Third tank get it off the ground and into forward flight keeping load off the motor and avoid prolonged hovering. By this time you'll need to drop your 1/4 stick curve about 5% and move your 3/4 point up to around 50 and your high stick up to around 70. I spent the first half of this tank getting the curve set up to hovering. Since your low stick is set and your #2 is set and you have mid stick at 5 or 6 degrees than just move the stick up to get into a hover and adjust your curve to keep hover at mid stick. When you get flying the 3/4 and full stick will need more adjusting but at 50 and 70 you should be able to gently get into forward flight. Eventually you'll get the 3/4 and high stick set to your flight/climbout/power liking.

-Fourth and so on tanks fly the same pretty much. You'll spend a few tanks just getting the curves right unless you have a Helitronix wireless tach then it only takes about 1/2 tank.

-Before you know it you'll burn up a gallon or two.

Fuel is a topic that gets beat to death. I used Ozark in my G230RC at first and was having some inconsistencies that disappeared as soon as I switched to 87 pump gas. Bill acknowledged that the RC style engine seems to run better for people on regular gas because of the compression difference. That said, people are using ozarks and are happy with it so really you decide what works best for you.

Oil is another beat up topic. I use AMSoil at 2oz per gallon. I used Lawnboy at 4oz per gallon for the first gallon then switched to AMSoil at 2oz per gallon after that. I burned about 2 gallons and considered that good enough for breakin. Next time I am just going to use AMSoil from the get go at 2.5oz per gallon for first two gallons then 2oz per gallon after that.

Just be sure to check the machine between each tank you run in the beginning to be sure stuff is still tight and be sure your throttle hold is programmed correctly and keep your finger ready to flip that switch in the event you do something you shouldn't have done.

Good Luck.

Mine

I agree with Zach, Bill has some great advice and helped me with my Benzin. I like Zach's break in that he followed but I chose to fly mine, again, by no means do I disagree with the way Zach did his break in. I just took a different road to the same destination.

Paul, regular unleaded gas will be fine.

I ran (and still do) Ozark Camp Fuel with Amsoil 100:1 mixed in at 2.5 oz for the first couple of gallons of fuel. Both needles were set at 1 3/8 and the throttle curve was set very low like what Zach mentioned. You can NOT setup a throttle curve on a gasser like you do a nitro heli. My pitch (800mm blades) was set at -5, -3, +5, +8, +11. My headspeed at hover was 1250. After my first two gallons I brought the oil down as little and on gallon four I was mixing the oil in at 2oz to the gallon. Also on that gallon I brought the high needle in a bit and just "touched" the low needle a bit leaner.

By the thrid and fourth gallon the motor was making more power with out the needles being touched so I worked my throttle curve down a little lower to keep the 1250 rpm on the head.

When first flying the Benzin with the needles set rich you will get some "burping" or burberling from the motor, and a tail kick from the motor doing this. That is normal. The more you run it during break in this will decrease.

If curious about your motor settings a good way to judge is the plug. Remove it and look at the center electrode, it should be carmel colored.

The entire thread can be seen here:

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t299844p1/

Christopher J
same as I ever was
"Still all set & Flying the original"

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11-25-2006 03:35 PM  11 years agoPost 9
asong26

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Thanks for the post.

Except for the pitch setting, what I've done was very similar. But Instead of setting the pitch curve, I've chosen to set mine to flat (initially -2, then -1.5) regardless of the throttle position. I've done this be setting up a new model on the radio that has linear throttle curve, and flat pitch line.

I've used Ozark w/ 4 oz per gallon for the first gallon. The needles were set at 1.5 turns for both low and high needles to starts. I've burned the entire tank at idle, and the second tank 30% throttle. And at 4 oz ashless per gallon, I began to notice some weird effect when the needles were transitioned to the high needle. Whenever throttle went over 50% throttle (seems to be the transition point on my heli w/ 6.79 gear ratio) the throttle would bog down. Even at 50% throttle, the engine would barely stay idle.

After speaking with rcadd1ct I understood the problem. First my tank was foaming, and second, at that rich mixture, the high needle wasn't getting enough gas, due to not only the air, but also the rich oil mixture. I've since opened up the high needle a bit more, and that problem seem to have gone away.

I took out the spark plug. The tap / coil part (mid section) of the spark plug was wet black (oil residue), and the tip of the spark plug was dry black. Which proved that this is too rich. But I guess for break-in procedure, this is recommended. After that I've taken out the rest of the remaining fuel in the tank using the reverse pump, and changed out the fuel filter to give it a new clean start.

I've pre-mixed 2 more gallons of Ozark w/ 5 oz (2.5 / gallon) Amsoil. I plan on going through the break-in procedure again to allow my engine to flush out any and all lawnboy ashless residue out of the engine as much as possible using the Amsoil mix. Once that's done, I'll also be discarting the stock Champion spark plugs, and will be installing the NGK iridium plugs. I am also thinking about also putting my V2 muffler into the dish washer to make sure that there are no lawnboy residue is sitting at the bottom of the muffler. I gotta believe that there is lot of this stuff sitting there. The muffler was dripping a lot of oil and the exhaust tip.

I agree with you based on my first break-in experience that next time on a new engine, I will not be using the Lawnboy stuff. I am going straight to the Amsoil. Although it'll take few more tanks to completely break-in, I have to believe that this is better for the engine overall, and you will reduce the risk of building of too much gunky carbon residue on top and may be even at the bottom of the piston. I only hope that couple more tanks of amsoil mixed fule will get this stuff out. If not, I may even consider taking out the piston and cleaning (also to inspect it for scolding and scratches in case it ran too hot).

Andrew

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11-25-2006 06:22 PM  11 years agoPost 10
Christopher J

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I wouldn't worry about putting the muffler in the dishwasher. Just running the motor will clean it out of the Lawnboy oil.
Although it'll take few more tanks to completely break-in, I have to believe that this is better for the engine overall, and you will reduce the risk of building of too much gunky carbon residue on top and may be even at the bottom of the piston.
I started off with Amsoil and don't have any oil residue on the piston or sleeve. On a few occasions I've taken the carb and exhaust off and pulled the plug to look inside the cylider. Everything is still pretty much shiny to build up. I feel the white gas and Amsoil burn very clean.

Christopher J
same as I ever was
"Still all set & Flying the original"

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11-26-2006 12:23 AM  11 years agoPost 11
asong26

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That's what I should have done (Amsoil from the beginning). Oh well, live and learn I guess....

I ran my engine today for a gallon at 25% throttle for the first time with the Amsoil mixture. What a night and day difference (clean). There must be a lot of build up in the V2 muffler. After the first tank of Amsoil mixed gas, and towards the end, it was still dripping the Lawnboy Ashless residue from the exhaust tip. I am going to run another tank tomorrow at Idle. The purpose here again is to allow the engine to run most of the ashless build-up out.

I believe the engine will get most of it out automatically, but I would still feel better having a clean pipe. I think I am still for dish-washer idea (after couple more tanks of course).

Andrew

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11-26-2006 01:02 AM  11 years agoPost 12
Chopper Man100

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I didn't read this whole post. I was under the impression that a full synthetic oil would not allow an engine to break in as in Amzoil. I thought some other oil had to be used like lawnboy ashless. My local hobby shop told me that and he is very familar with gasser engines.

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11-26-2006 02:27 AM  11 years agoPost 13
asong26

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Chopper Man,

I've done a lot of research regarding the engine break-in. I've read numerous posts here, and other forums. Everyone has consistently recommended using mineral based oil such as Lawnboy Ashless for the first gallon or two.

The whole point of engine break-in is to fill the gaps in cyliner / piston. If you put your brand new pistons / cyliner under the microscope, it will look like the surface of mars. The idea is to allow oil to heat and fill those gaps until they are solidified. There by providing a smooth surface for the piston to travel up and down in (reduce friction / increase viscosity).

Majority of people who are gasser experts recommend using mineral based oil vs. the synthetic for break-in, since mineral based oils will build up faster than the super lubricating synthetics such as Amsoil. However, those same experts also concede to the fact that you CAN use synthetic to break-in the oil. The difference is that you will be running at least 4 to 5 gallons for the break-in since synthetic oils offer much more viscosity, lower friction based temp, etc and so on...

I could've gone the Synthetic break-in route, but I didn't have the patience to go through 4 to 5 gallons of break-in period. I now realize that this is a mistake (this is purely my own opinion based on my preference). The ashless oil is too 'dirty'. It's really nasty looking. Although it would've taken more time, I should've stuck with the cleaner synthetic to begin with (just a peace of mind knowing your engine internals are clean, no gunk, no black nasty residue).

I just went through second tank of Amsoil based mix after burning 1 gallon of Lawnboy Ashless. The black residue from the Lawnboy stuff is still spitting out of the muffler. I am sure that's fine, but I just don't like it. It's only a preference. I like clean

I wonder how many more tanks it will take for the Lawnboy residue to flush itself out... Any opinions?

Andrew

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11-26-2006 03:45 AM  11 years agoPost 14
asong26

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Needle on TRM

Anyone using TRM modified G231? I have couple of questions regarding this motor and Amsoil combo.

If you read the break-in instructions from John Garst, or Toxic Al himself, it states that you should be setting your needles at 1 1/2 turns to start. The instructions also say that as the engine begins to break-in, and notice that power is gradually gaining, you would want to richen the needle, and continue to richen it until the power gain has peaked. But the instructions do not mention what this final needle should be. And frankly it's a bit conflicting since, everyone seems to be running their needle at 1 3/8. It's even more confusing since the instruction starts you off at 1 1/2 turns. If you increase the needle gradually, you would end up at minimum 1 3/4, which close to 2 turns.

Something's missing. The instruction of the needle start, and needle increase vs. where everyone is setting their needles to are not logical.

What am I missing here?

Andrew

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11-26-2006 04:01 AM  11 years agoPost 15
FCM

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The reason some of the engine gurus recommend using a stright mineral oil for breaking in is that this type of oil allows the piston ring to wear at a quicker rate than most fully synthetic oils allow. This is what you are doing when you break the engine in - you are actually bedding (wearing)in the piston ring so that it takes up the shape and surface texture of the cylinder walls.

You will not hurt the engine running fully synthetic from the start but it will take a bit longer to break in and this means you will have to wait longer until you can finally set the mixture up as this changes as the rings beds in.

I don't think doing all that idling the engine for a tank is going to clear any oil residue out. All it will do is allow the crank case to fill up with oil and possibly foul the plug or if it gets hot enough, stick the piston ring in its groove.

If I have rebuilt an engine with a new piston ring, I start it and get airborne straight away and listen to what it is doing. I use mineral oil for breaking in and it works well for me but I am very impatient as I am a commercial AP user so any shortcut that works is good for me.

Have another look at John's instructions. Are you sure it tells you to richen the needles up? There final mixture settings are only a guide anyway. I think the important setting to remember is do not run the engine with the needles open any less than 1 1/4 - please chip in here and correct me if I am wrong on this

Paul.

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11-26-2006 04:23 AM  11 years agoPost 16
asong26

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Paul,

I was actually running a bit higher on the ground. Initially, at idle for about 5 minutes and after that the throttle was gradually increased by 10% after every 5 minutes. The final throttle was at 35% @ zero pitch. The engine is silky smooth now. No coughing, no vibration, no resonance what so ever. The tail is rock solid. For the first 2 tanks on the ground at zero pitch w/ amsoil, I've mounted the heli onto the Rotopod. As you may know, Rotopod has a free spinning base. So, you can get a good glimpse of how the tail is doing. This thing is rock solid. I am very happy with my current needle settings to tell you the truth. It is currently at 1 3/8 with 2.3 ounces of Amsoil in Ozark camper fuel.

My question regarding the TRM break-in procedure is simply based on my desire to understand what is the best, or if not, what is the 'average' best.

On the 'other forum' you can go to the TRM section from the main page (they have their own forum there at HF). There is a sticky post regarding the break-in (proper break-in) posted by John Garst. When you have a moment, please do take a look. May be I am comprehending that direct clearly....

Thank you.

Andrew

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11-26-2006 04:53 AM  11 years agoPost 17
asong26

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Paul:

Here's the post from the 'other forum'

**********************************************************************
Oil Recommendations

Any good quality two-cycle synthetic oil can be used. Follow the oil manufacturers recommendations on mixing ratios. NEVER use outboard motor oil or injector oil. Outboard oil is formulated for use in water-cooled two cycle motors. These oils will damage the motor in short order!

Break- In Oil Fully synthetic oil can be used for break in purposes. However, due to the ring and cylinder hardness, these oils will take much longer to properly break in the motor. It is recommended to break in the motor using quality petroleum based or mineral based oil. The recommended break-in oil is Lawn Boy Ashless mixed at 28.5:1 ratio. This will be 4.5 ounces per gallon. The break in period on this oil will be for approximately one gallon. Many oils are not compatible with one another. The Lawn Boy Ashless oil seems to work very well when followed by running most all synthetics afterward for normal operation.

First Tank/Flight

Set the needles to at least 1 and ½ turns open from full closed. Create a low throttle curve for normal mode and avoid using idle-up for the first tank or so. The throttle curve will most likely be very low using a linear throttle set-up. Ex. 0, 18, 24, 60, 100. It is very important to keep the initial RPM low for the first tank or two.

Start the motor and lift the model into a hover. Make sure that the motor RPM does not get high. If the motor races at all, land and reset the needles (both) to a more rich setting and possibly recheck the pitch curve for proper settings. The throttle curve can be adjusted up or down to accomplish the first hover. Remember! Keep the RPM down.

Fly around a slow forward circuit or hover at slightly changing pitch settings. The idea is to add a very small amount of load to the motor at a time. Slow forward flight will aid in cooling the motor as well. Avoid “punching-out” with throttle or aerobatics during this time. After about 10 minutes of flight, land and allow the motor to cool for at least 45 minutes. The idea here is to “heat-cycle” the motor for the first few flights.

Remember to allow the motor to cool fully (at least 45 minutes) before addition flight or motor running! Allow the motor to idle for a minute or two before shutting it down. This helps to cool the motor and keeps the motor from getting hot after shut down.

With each additional flight, the motor will start to speed up slightly. Adjust the needles more open to keep the motor to the rich side.

*********************************************************************

As you can see, my confusion is if you start the needle at 'at least' 1 1/2 turns, and gradually richen up the needle more, by the end when the engine has broken in, you would be close to 2 full turns. This is what confuses me. By saying 'at least' 1 1/2 turns, I am assuming, around 1 6/8. If you richen the needle more after that, it would bring you very close to 2 full turns....

Andrew

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11-26-2006 08:13 AM  11 years agoPost 18
FCM

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Well, I can see the problem with the way John has written the instructions. John knows so much about this and has personally helped me out of a big hole I dug for myself a couple of years ago with my engine oil selection/tuning. What he doesn't know isn't worth knowing to be honest.

My personal interpretation, knowing John's concern that people may run their engines lean and damage them, is that he is erring on the side of caution with the needle advice. He is trying to stop people from leaning out the low needle in particular to make the engine more powerful and/or to stop it from shaking.

I am glad to hear that your engine is now running smooth. Once you get it flying, it will change again and you must remember the advice about not leaning out the mixture. You should not go too far wrong if you keep the needles about where they are now and watch and listen to the engine. If it does show any signs of shaking or, heaven forbid, overheating/sagging, then land immediately and open up the needles a screw driver's slot width. The most important thing to remember is that you can melt the inside of the engine if you run it too lean for too long. I have done loads of really stupid tests using all different oils and settings even at one time running auto lub oil by mistake but I never damaged an engine because I would not fly it for too long, landing every 90 seconds and allowing it to cool off at idle before trying again.

Be sensible with it and I am sure you will have no running problems.

Paul.

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11-26-2006 02:13 PM  11 years agoPost 19
Chopper Man100

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With each additional flight, the motor will start to speed up slightly. Adjust the needles more open to keep the motor to the rich side.
My interperation of this is that john wants to make sure that the engine doesn't get into an over speeding condition. The wording says the engine speed will increase slightly. By opening the needle it will keep the RPM down and maybe keep the temperature more consistant during the break in process.

Just my 2 cents.

CW

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11-26-2006 09:15 PM  11 years agoPost 20
asong26

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John's response:

Hey guys, John was kind enough to give me some feedback in the other forum. What a guy...
My motor is running just fine. The horsepower has peaked and the motor is still very strong.

The happy point is at 12,500-12,750 using a tuned muffler unit. The v2 Centurt and the Hatori both like this RPM and work very well.

Using the TRM tuned pipe, the RPM likes to be 13,000 to 13,250 and the power is amazing since the horsepower is raised at 33% (from @ 2.8 to 3.8 HP).

I have found that either the Hatori or Century will operate just fine at 13,000 RPM as well.

You are correct, this new 13,000 RPM range is with a fully broken in motor. I would only recommend this RPM however, if you know the carb and needles extremely well. This RPM is running the carb on it's borderline of needle/flow settings and result in having to have a very fined tuned needle (both of the needels are open very much H=2 turns and L=1 2/8).

Using the same fuel mixture at 50:1

Later,
_________________
BIGRCR- John Garst
Amzing! I can't wait for the tuned pipe to be fully tested and released. Regarding the low needle setting that John has on 1 2/8. I wouldn't do this unless you know this motor inside and out. But on the high needle, my confusion / assumption was correct. You will end up close to 2 full turns as engine continues to break-in and demand more fuel.

Andrew

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