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HelicopterMain Discussion › mCCPM - I think
11-23-2006 03:40 AM  11 years agoPost 1
Portblock

rrVeteran

Van Nuys, CA

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Ok, I went crazy thinking about CCPM, and we all know what this is, enought said.

Then I starting thinging about eCCPM, mCCPM, and Discreete (elevator/aileron/collective)

So, discreete is whats on a raptor, stinger, etc...
eCCPM, is what apears to be on most, with the radio doing the mixing

Now, I drew up a diagram with an idea I saw from an XCell, the XCell used the Collective servo to tilt the aileron servo as to move the swash plate up and down. (not quite mCCPM, becouse there is no elevator mixing)

So, using this concept, I drew the following, I use the collective servo to push and swivel the elevator servo, which in turn pushes/swivels the aileron servo.

The aileron servo by itself will only tilt the swah left and right. However, the elevator servo will tilt the swash back and forth with the aileron servo moving in the oppisite direction.

I am assumimg that by moving the mix point on the elevator to aileron, we can adjust for 120 or 140 swash.

check it out, it was just my mind working on over time.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 04:32 AM  11 years agoPost 2
mchammer

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California,USA

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Man thats great!
I have an old xcell 60 and can see how your idea would work very well.
The clear benefit would be if a servo failed you would maintain much more contoll of the heli instead of it going crazy like on e-ccpm.
on the down side you would have to have all of the mechanics to allow 2 rocking servos.I bet you could convert an old xcell to your setup with some extra rocking collective parts from MA.you could build your own servo tray out of light ply like the old ones to see how it well it would work.

good luck!

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11-23-2006 04:37 AM  11 years agoPost 3
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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I hate it when I get these bugs in me that make me (along with the voices taunting me), make me try these things just to see if they work.. but then thats also how we learn.

I saw an erector set at walmart the other day, that might give me the extra parts I need to mock it up.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 04:37 AM  11 years agoPost 4
mchammer

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California,USA

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The other drawback is probably the main downside.
You dont get the benefit of the power of 3 servos for collective controll so this setup like my old xcell requires alot of work from the collective servo that does all of the "rocking" of the other 2 servos.

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11-23-2006 04:51 AM  11 years agoPost 5
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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Ah yes, I didnt think about this, to me it just seamed to be three to the swash, but its not, the collective servo gets the most torque followed by the elevator, then the aileron.

An advantage is the setup, with a eCCPM you have:

Servo ATV (endpoints) Elevator, Aileron, Collective
Servo Reversing Elevator, Aileron, Collective
Swash Through (+ or -) for Elevator, Aileron, Collective
Dual Rate (to limit stuff) for Elevator, Aileron, Collective

With this setup, you could skip the swash throughs, and just use Dual Rate to limit the Cyclic (aileron and elvator) with ECCPM, I am confused to on what to use to limit my cyclic pitches.

But then I set only a handfull of CCPM machines up, thats one hadfull not two hands cupped.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 05:02 AM  11 years agoPost 6
mchammer

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California,USA

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It must be done thru the swash mixing setup on the transmitter
in standard ccpm.

Peace Through Superior Firepower!!!

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11-23-2006 05:14 AM  11 years agoPost 7
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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A possible advantage on this setup, is being able to choose a faster or more powerfull servo for just the collective.

You could have a super fast servo here, and not so fast on the others.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 07:37 AM  11 years agoPost 8
Spinky

rrApprentice

PETERBOROUGH UK

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Mechanical mixing
Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but this is nothing new it has been like this on the Robbe Millenium for years.Just my 2 cents worth.

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11-23-2006 07:52 AM  11 years agoPost 9
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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Not a big deal, I just couldnt find anything on mCCPM, and the findings I found said it was the same as eCCPM, but I just knew it wasnt.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 12:23 PM  11 years agoPost 10
SteveH

rrProfessor

Texas

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A lot of creative thinking here, but sorry, not right. mCCPM is like the Raptor system, or the Hawk system...any system that uses seperate servos each for aileron, elevator, and collective, AND THE SWASH PLATE MOVES UP AND DOWN FOR COLLECTIVE CHANGE. eCCPM is of course, where the mixing is done in the transmitter.

Dicrete is seldom see anymore. It is like the old Kyosho Concepts, or the old Schlueter Champions where there is a servo for each function, but the swash DOES NOT MOVE UP AND DOWN FOR COLLECTIVE.

Don't know why there has been so much confusion over this for so long, but maybe I've helped clear things up a little.

The government cannot give you anything without first taking it from someone else.

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11-23-2006 05:34 PM  11 years agoPost 11
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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Ah yes, I think the raptor, xcell are sorta mCCPM. becouse there is not full mix on the cyclic.

xcell, mixes collective and aileron
raptor, mixes collective and elevator

the older ones you mention, I do not recall, but assume its like something I just saw. where the swash stays level, but the washout is moved up and down via a collective servo.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 05:59 PM  11 years agoPost 12
Barney

rrKey Veteran

Inverness Scotland

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At a glance this looks very similiar to System 88 that Robbe have been using for years..On Futura, Futura SE, Nova, Millie 1 & 2 etc..

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11-23-2006 06:26 PM  11 years agoPost 13
Barney

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Inverness Scotland

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Heres a link to the modified Systemm 88. This is on a Dyna-X. The push pull moves a pivot which in turn rocks the other servo's to give CCPM

You will need to download the PDF file..piccys near the bottom

http://www.rcmarket.org/xnews.php?newsid=7

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11-23-2006 06:44 PM  11 years agoPost 14
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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Yes, I see it, so would we assume that this is mechanical ccpm?

then this leaves us 5 catagories:

eCCPM - Radio mixed, as in the synergy
mCCPM - mechanical mix, as in the Dyna X
Elevator mix as in the Raptor
Aileron mix as in the XCell
Discreete - seperates as in Keyosho Concept, walkera 36?

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 07:53 PM  11 years agoPost 15
J3DI

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Oswestry, Shropshire. UK

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I would have thought you could categorise the system 88 along with the raptor setup as well as another variant of mixing as seen on the Kyosho Caliber 5. Essentially they all do the same thing by having 1 servo for aeileron, 1 servo for elevator and 1 servo for collective?

So this means you still have just 2 categories:

eCCPM : 3 swash servos and mixing done by radio.
mCCPM : 3 separate servos with individual functions as mentioned above.

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11-23-2006 08:21 PM  11 years agoPost 16
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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However, in a CCPM, Collective, Cyclic Pitch Mixing you have mixing of the aileron servo along with the elevator servo.

Example: on a eCCPM, move the cyclic forward, on a CCPM swash you will see the front half of the swash go down, as the back comes up.

thus you have to have the elevator servo move it in one direction, and the aileron servo move it slightly in the opposite direction. The raptor, moves the swash forward or backward with just one disceete servo, there is no mixing from the aileron servo, hence this can not be called mCCPM.

With a 120, or 140 swash you have to move the aileron servos the opposite direction than the elevator otherwise the total pitch on both blades will reduce if you have a 120/140 swash, and you just lower the front of the swash and the back maintains its position, thus a lack of mixing.

I may be way off base, but I am trying to adhere to the pricipals of CCPM on a 120/140 swash, and mixing the commands to the swash. matters not how it gets mixed, M or E, as long as there are mixed commands comming through to 3 points on the swash.

And if we truly disect it, the raptor is not a mCCPM becouse the commands to the swash are for a 90 degree swash with elevator and aileron, and there is no mixing between the inputs to the swash.

One could argue that the raptor mixes elevator with collective, but there is no mixing, the collective just uses the mount points of the swash to raise it. There is 0 interaction of any one channel to another channel.

(ok, except for the .2% if interaction due to the impossible to reduce angular mechanics of the elevator and collective mounting.)

But then this is just my opinion upon all this.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 08:52 PM  11 years agoPost 17
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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As I was just talking to somone, I stand corrected about my references to 120/140, it does not matter if this is 90/120/140/180 CCPM swash.

If its CCPM, then there are mixed signals going to the swash not discreet ones, regardless of how it gets to the swash.

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-23-2006 09:34 PM  11 years agoPost 18
J3DI

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Oswestry, Shropshire. UK

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It's a little confusing but eCCPM and mCCPM are both CCPM, where the cyclic and collective functions are mixed by the ability of the swashplate to tilt(cyclic function) and raise/lower(collective function) at the same time. How that is achieved is where the (m) or (e) part comes into it. Think of the difference between a Raptor 90 and Synergy where what happens above the swashplate is effectively the same but they get there in different ways. A system that doesn't use CCPM is something like a Zoom where the swash can only tilt for cyclic functions but the collective servo controls the raising or lowering of the mixer arm.

Think i'm starting to get confused myselfy now, can someone else pitch in? (that wasn't a joke!).

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11-23-2006 09:51 PM  11 years agoPost 19
Portblock

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Van Nuys, CA

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I totaly get what you are saying, I have now seen, I have a little walkera 36 for experimentations. It raises and lowers the washout to change pitch. the swash does not move up and down.

As you said, if the swash moves up and down, then it is functioning as CCPM, here is where I start to confuse my self as well.

If the inputs to the swash raise/lower/tilt it then CCPM, but I look at the words CCPM Collective/Cyclic/Pitch - Mixing and I do not see mixing as we do on an eCCPM.

I think I am stuck on seing, as on my synergy, the rear of the swash being lifted by the elevator servo, and the aileron servo dropping the front of it, thus I see mixing, when POS on the elevator, NEG on the ailerons, thus a mix, -20% for 120 and -30% for 140 (guestimates). then to raise the swash all 3 servos moves.

Yes, I confuse myself alot on this one, but it is great to get the mind going.

I am hung up on the mixing part, takeing one stick movement, and mixing it to the swash inputs.

Yes, someone else chime in, its a great discussion, not argument

The voices in my head can beat up the voices in your head.

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11-24-2006 12:18 AM  11 years agoPost 20
SteveH

rrProfessor

Texas

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I'll restate the parrameters a little more basic and clear...if the swash moves for collective pitch, it is CCPM, whether it be mechanical or electronic.

If the swash does not move for collective pitch, it is not CCPM, but discrete.

The government cannot give you anything without first taking it from someone else.

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HelicopterMain Discussion › mCCPM - I think
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