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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Had a blast in 40 degree flatlands ! & Have a pitch curve question
11-22-2006 06:12 AM  11 years agoPost 21
pphil611

rrApprentice

South Dakota

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GREYEAGLE

Just got home from a trip and noted all the interest in the pitch problems. I agree with all of them.

I noted you listed your pitch curves at all five positions. Your right the 9c percentage is zilch. The actual degrees is what is important and it should be like robart indicated. "HOWEVER"
You indicated your positions 1 thru 5 is;
-3,+1,+5,+9,+10
My questian is why do you have 4 degrees differance between all set points except position 4 and 5 where there is only 1 degree differance. If you had a linear curve you would have the same degree differance between each set point. Also seems position 4 and 5 is real close to your hover point.

Dont understand why your intent on the -3 as your max low pitch. seems like that is basicly a powered auto. and will probably result in an over speeding engine. Anyway if your going to stick with that I think -4, 0, +3, +6, +10 would be a better set that gives you a differance between set points of 4, 3, 3, 4, degrees. hover would be a little above 1/2 stick.

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM

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11-22-2006 06:18 AM  11 years agoPost 22
pphil611

rrApprentice

South Dakota

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Greyeagle
forgot to mention I have an Excell program that plots the curves for the throttel and pitch and can be put on a sheet to overlap each
other. Dont rember where I got it but if you have microsoft excell I can send it to you.

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM

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11-22-2006 08:35 AM  11 years agoPost 23
AussiJohn

rrApprentice

Perth Western Australia

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You indicated your positions 1 thru 5 is;
-3,+1,+5,+9,+10
I agree there is the problem. Why can't you set up as Raja said with a linear pitch curve and just use the radio to limit the bottom end. Also agree with pphil611 about going to at least -4 +10.

Nice canopy too

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11-22-2006 05:47 PM  11 years agoPost 24
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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Note on a Futaba these % ages mean absolutley nothing in relation ship to what is physically happening.
Oh common now, its all in the way you read um …
: Note Stick posistions are direct relation to the above posted pitches.

Ace at my 3/4 posistion I'm 3/4 open and figuire Ive got to be around
=+ 6 pitch to around + 7 pitch
I think you would be in orbit if that were really true.
Is their a way to plot the graphs over each other ??
Certainly …

OK pal, now I see what you have. You have five programmable points on the curve same as what I have with my Hitec so I can use the same template I made for myself.

The “Y” coordinate axis shows percent on the left and pitch and throttle opening on the right. The “X” coordinate axis shows the point position.

Look at the graph now. The percentages do make sense. BTW you can plot this on standard graph paper yourself. At 65% you have just about 3 degrees of pitch and that makes more sense especially for a 1600+ headspeed (no way could you have 6 degrees of pitch unless you were trying to lift a pumpkin).

I did a graph on Raja’s setup but with 5 points and no governor I don’t think it will work to good for you. I suppose you could trash your radio and blow a grand on a new one with a governor if you like.

Just to show you what these radios are capable of I posted a third graph of what my setup is. First let me say I have no intention of flying 3D (of any kind) ever. That being said my mechanical set up is -3 degrees at the bottom and +11 degrees at the top. That puts me at 4 degrees for midstick. Also you can see that I only use 9.3 degrees of pitch as my full stick position for right now. With a G231 and a buried stick this thing will go up in a hurry forever (more than I need right now).

I have two rotary knobs on my radio, one for throttle and one for pitch adjustments. If you do not have your hover position around midstick you can’t use them so that explains why I shoot for midstick hover. When you use throttle and pitch curves, a lot depends on what you want or like. The knobs will give you an analogue method of tweaking to your liking around the midstick position. Once you are satisfied you have what you want then you can adjust your curves accordingly to center the knobs and forget them. Or take measurements so you can move the hover position to ¾ stick if you so desire.

Oh one note here, my radio only has these knobs active in the normal flight mode. If you switch to another mode the adjustments are gone so after you find your best setting it is a good idea to adjust your curves so you can center the knobs. Or NOT!

I suspect that when I get the G260 up and running on my second machine I will be able to crank up the pitch to 100%, 11 degrees of pitch and really blow the leaves off the parking lot. For now I am contented with just over 9.

This has been said before but I will repeat it for those using curves and not a governor:
1. Air flow with a butterfly valve in not linear so it is impossible to get constant RPM with pitch curves. (especially with only 5 points)
2. Flow drops off drastically at the top end however the increase load of the blades as pitch increases is holding the RPM from increasing as you add collective (at least this is what you are trying to do).
3. Try to balance your curve from hover to 7/8 open on the throttle not full open. Then if you don’t want the RPM to rise or sag adjust the pitch curve up or down in the P5 position. Or you could let it do what ever it wants at the upper end and adjust the collective to keep the RPM reasonable. For those that are cranking 11 degrees or better with the G231`they are doing just that (adjusting the collective).

It is better to have a slight increase in RPM if you can get it. This will give you more momentum to work with when it sags at the top.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-22-2006 10:30 PM  11 years agoPost 25
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Plotting graphs

Hey Ace:

Looked at your graph of my setup, its not quite right. So I went down to the basement and grabbed my TX. Since you are into plotting, can you redo mine (3 graphs) with the right numbers from my radio?

Here we go:

Normal mode: 0%, 20%, 22.5%, 25%, 100%
Idle up 1: 100%, 27.5%, 25%, 27.5%, 100%
Idle ip 2: 100%, 32.5%, 27.5%, 32.5%, 100%

My pitch curve as you graphed and I said earlier is a linear line from 0 to 100% and it yields -10, -5, 0, +5, +10.

Note that these throttle curves yield about 1550 rpms in a hover in normal mode, 1650 in idle up 1, 1750 in idle up 2. I have a gv-1 and it takes over and runs at these speeds, but if I turn off the gv-1 I've tweaked the throttle curve settings so that there is either no difference in rpms in a hover or there is a slight drop.

So, do the graphs over with this info and give me your analysis. I will maintain that my heli does hover at pretty similar speeds as the gv-1 with those throttle curves and pitch settings (around -5, +5 at inverted/upright hover).

The only thing that changes is the hover pitch when I change rotor speeds. But that change is probably a degree of pitch change between the slowest speed and the fastest one.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-23-2006 03:07 AM  11 years agoPost 26
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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THANX ! wHAT A eYE OPENER thanx to all

Raja / ACE / pphill and the rest thanx !

Was going by the visual 9C screen's plotted view's but pphill pointed the obvious ! looking at the numerical spread between the pitch points it's rough as a cob !

Ace thanks for the visual ! Man How does one get that graphing stuff of yours. Super - 10 ATA Boy's one gallon !

Ra I'll compromize : -5 for now and I'll double check my total available pitch, swash center travel, link arm'e ect / ect. Pretty positive the mechanical basic's are their / I was pretty through.

I really got the linier thing a mess though from reading - ready to place a piece of tape over the screen !

This dialing up stuff is a real pain working by proxiy but I sure apreciate it !

I'm going to dive in - putting on the snorkel ! Glad I got records on the recipe cards !

Lets keep the post going / very good stuff !

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11-23-2006 02:21 PM  11 years agoPost 27
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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I did the normal and the Idle 1 throttle curves. Idle 2 just looks like a bump up from Idle 1 around hover. Yes, yours would make more sense because the slop should increase from P4 to P5 not decrease like I had it.

The important part of the graph is P2-P3-P4 which is why I say trying to balance the pitch and throttle curve by burrying the stick is kind of fruitless. If your engine doesn't have the nuts to withstand max pitch you aren't balancing nothing. Match your pitch and throttle at P3 and P4. If you hover is at P4 then your hands are tied all you can do is hope for the best or use a governor type device. There is no way you can balance the curve with 5 points and still use max pitch.

Actually if I were to make a governor device I would also decrease the pitch when the throttle is above 75% if the RPM dropped to a certain value. But I suppose that would only be useful for sport flying.

See Greyeagle, just draw the graphs by hand like I just did. You don't need a fancy cad system. I can make a blank template in a Word document if you like. Upload it to RR so you could download it. Let me know if I should do this.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-23-2006 03:54 PM  11 years agoPost 28
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Some thoughts

Don't forget that the gasser engine develops most of its power in the first 30% of carb opening. So I'm already hovering at 25 to 32% depending on the requested head rpm speed. If you were to test that in an airplane, like my taylorcraft for example with the G23, that motor is already spinning the prop at 5500 rpms at 30% throttle or so. And if I go to full throttle it only makes it to 7200 rpms. There is even less change between 3/4 and full throttle in the end resulting rpms so its not linear in any fashion.

The only thing that is incorrect about my curves is that in normal mode without the governor if I go to full throttle full pitch we know that the engine is going to overspeed the 1550 rpms I'm asking and in fact its going to gain rpms all the way to 1750 or so as I've tested full power climbout before with gv-1 off and I get say 1750 rpms.

If you want to be technical, idle up 2 full power 100% is correct. Idle up 1 should be like 85% thottle or whatever it needs to be to maintain climbout at 1650 rpms, and normal mode full thorttle needs to be something like 65% or whatever it needs to be to maintain climbout at 1550 rpms.

For me I just left them at full throttle as if for some reason I'm not using the gv-1 and I'm trying to get out of trouble and bury the stick I want full power to rescue me.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-24-2006 02:17 PM  11 years agoPost 29
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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My Thoughts:

I don't have any data to support my belief but I don't agree that most of the power of the engine is attained at 30% of the throttle. I do know that it is not linear and did say so. I also believe the curve would be parabolic with the greatest change occurring at maximum opening. I think you believe this also. So here is where our analogies disagree. If the pitch curve is a straight line and the throttle is a parabolic curve, in no way can your RPM stay constant from hover to full stick with a straight line curve on the throttle (line between P4 and P5). So having the hover point be near the P4 position on a five point curve actually requires a governor type device.

Now lets look at something else. How can your idle up curves be different but also have the P5 position equal to 11 degrees of pitch with full throttle and then say your RPM is constant. I don't think you can. Actually, I don't think I have to prove this. I am sure you know constant RPM is impossible under these conditions.

Here's another thing to think about. You have got two engines, right? Run the souped up G260 at full throttle /with 11 degrees of pitch and then run the G231 at full throttle with 11 degrees of pitch and try to explain how they run at the same headspeed.

Things I don't have answers for:

Comparing an airplane engine to a helicopter engine is like comparing a lawn mower to a boat. In an airplane engine you increase power by increasing speed. In a helicopter you increase power by increasing torque (not speed). Speed is supposed to remain constant. Now with a carburetor this boggles my mind a little bit. If the RPM is not allowed to increase then the airflow into the cylinder is not increasing by much when you open the throttle so how does the engine get more fuel? I know it does because it gets stronger (more torque). I just don't know how it happens.

Sorry Greyeagle for this off topic rambling...

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-24-2006 02:58 PM  11 years agoPost 30
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Constant speed

Well honestly Ace no matter how good of a throttle/pitch curve setup guy you will NEVER get a constant headspeed for all situations. That is why you buy a gv-1 or similar to make for that constant headspeed as loads change on the heli in flight depending on orientation and throttle curves cannot compensate for all situations.

The way I setup my throttle curves is "close enough" to give me something to work with should the gv-1 ever fail and I'd say they are pretty accurate on the specific points. In other words a point 3 with zero pitch I have just right right amount of throttle to spin the rotor at the desired head speed. At point 2 and 4 the head speed is the same and I'm hovering inverted and upright. At points 1 and 5 well they are accurate in idle up 2, otherwise the head is speeding up in the climb in the other modes but I don't care as I use the gv-1 to give me a constant headspeed and limit my throttle on the way up in the other modes.

I'd say if you want your heli to fly its best, get a governor, put that in and don't worry too much about throttle/pitch curves. The reason you have a straight line pitch curve is that the stick feels the same all the way throughout the range. If you reduce it at some points the you have to more the stick MORE in some places just to get the same reaction you were getting in other places throughout the range.

Now I'm going to say goodbye to theory and hello to some fun! I'm going to the field to fly, we can talk more about this when the weather is bad or the sun is not out!

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-24-2006 04:24 PM  11 years agoPost 31
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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Well honestly Ace no matter how good of a throttle/pitch curve setup guy you will NEVER get a constant headspeed for all situations.
That is because the engine runs out of poop at the high end. And whether you like it or not the same is true for a governor. Your headspeed will decay if you bury the stick and keep it there. This will be very obvious if you lower your headspeed. The higher headspeed is allowing you to store more potential energy in the rotors. I think full throttle with 11 degrees of pitch will result in decaying headspeed no matter which engine you have (231 or 260). The governor doesn't help this situation.

It is very obvious that your concern is 3D and my concern is not. This may sound crazy to you but for an AP application (no inverted flight) I could set up P2 as the hover point. Yeah that's right, hover at 1/4 stick! That would give me P3, P4 and P5 to create a nicely matched curve that would probably hold as good if not better than a governor would. A governor's reaction is always late. It has to sense a sag in RPM before it can do anything about it. With ballancing curves you can anticipate the load, putting in slightly more throttle than you need that would fall off as you increase the stick. You can't do that with a governor that only reacts to sagging RPM.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-24-2006 10:31 PM  11 years agoPost 32
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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That is because the engine runs out of poop at the high end. And whether you like it or not the same is true for a governor. Your headspeed will decay if you bury the stick and keep it there.
Hey Ace, no offense but this is where we seperate the "one gallon expert" from the "one hundred and fifty gallon expert".

Your head speed will not decay if you bury the stick. It will hold level at whatever your motor can supply with the collective setting and blade length, etc. If you had a faster headspeed than the motor can handle, it will decay. If you had a lower head speed than the motor can handle, it will increase (this is without governor). With governor on the latter you headspeed will hold steady and it can throttle back.

So going back to my statement where my idle up 2 is correct throttle curve at the points, if I do a full power climbout as far as the eye can see my rotor speed settles at 1750 rpms. If I set the gv-1 to 1750 rpms as I did in idle up 2, then at midstick its at 1750 with the throttle curve (because I matched the governor like I taught you), at hover its at 1750 because I did the same, and at full power it can only do 1750 so its still right.

In idle up 1 I'm only asking for 1650, so at full throttle with the governor OFF its going to speed up from 1650 to 1750 and then hold steady there. With the gv-1 on, it will throttle back and hold steady full power climbout at 1650. In that case my throttle curve at idle up 1 at 100% is incorrect technically as I said before and should be limited to like 85% or whatever it is needed to maintain 1650 all the way up.

Think about it some, and hopefully eventually you'll come to the same conclusion.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-25-2006 02:56 AM  11 years agoPost 33
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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Field Trials Today

After reading all that / all I can say is YUP !

They absolutley sparkel !! Done things today that can only be said as many large giant steps ! Full steam / Minimal pitch in forward flight and going like hell like a greased puck on a air hockey table.

Only complaint is I wish the sun wasn't so low on the horizon !

Going around corners with full steam / minimum pitch : roll and pull !

Double Dang ! Sizzel power !

I don't think these motors have seen that Kind of liniar power but today they did!

Comming in is effortless and kinda wish I had spoilers or crow flap option. NO YO YO ! NO BAM BAM !

Next is the Pull & Squwatt stop : Man did it once ! So much fun I was scared to do it again, "thought I was going to wet my self "

Noise it awsom and they just asked to be spanked !

Thanks guys very much on the Pitch advice.

PS: When are they going to mfg a good muff so I can get my Spectra?

PSS. Any body need some nice unusual plank'S.

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11-25-2006 04:17 AM  11 years agoPost 34
pphil611

rrApprentice

South Dakota

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GREYEAGLE
Sounds like you got everything set up pretty good. "Good Show"
phil

Spectra-G, MAH, CSM

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11-25-2006 05:11 AM  11 years agoPost 35
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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What does that mean?

Greyeagle,

I didn't get your last post (that spacial humour blew right over my head). Did you make chances to the pitch so its linear or did you make changes so its not? Which advice did you follow?

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-25-2006 02:33 PM  11 years agoPost 36
AceBird

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Utica, NY USA

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if I do a full power climbout as far as the eye can see my rotor speed settles at 1750 rpms.
Assuming this to be true with a souped up g260 it won't be true with the g231. You say that here:
It will hold level at whatever your motor can supply with the collective setting and blade length, etc.
You left out one important factor, weight. Add or subtract weight and the RPM will sag or increase. Other variables are barometric pressure, fuel mixtures, and ambient temperature which affect engine cooling and air fuel mixture, ala available horsepower. So if you are setting your curves based on tests for the conditions on one given day your results will vary from day to day. Unless you say to yourself I am only going to make settings based on 80-90% of the engine's capacity.

Forgive me for saying but I think this discussion has nothing to do with how many gallons of fuel you burn and more to do with understanding the equation of a line and simple mathematics.

Ace
What could be more fun?

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11-25-2006 04:36 PM  11 years agoPost 37
rbort

rrProfessor

Franklin, MA - USA

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Its true with any engine

Though with a G231 its lower than with a G260. So if my G260 can maintain 1800 rpms full power with my heli, a G231 can only maintain 1700 rpms for example.

That's why if you search the forums here I usually tell people to "request" an rpm from the gv-1 that is lower than your max rpms. So if you do a full power climbout and your engine runs at 1800, you ask for 1750 with the gv-1 at the fastest speed and 1650 at the medium and 1550 at normal more for example you will never see the headspeed decay in a full power climbout with the gv-1.

Those people who want to run 1850 and 1900 rpms with their G231's and think they are getting more power that way because they are in the power curve well they can do that in a hover but they cannot maintain that any day when they bury the stick exactly like you say. Their rotor speed will start to decay as soon as they do that and if they hold it steady and do a full power climbout it will slow down from 1900 tom 1700 by the time they get to a 1000 feet.

They got speed behind them, but not enough power to maintain it. Personally I don't like that because your rotor speed is always changing as you change loads and the heli actually does not fly as accurate due to that. You can stick bang faster (faster rotor means faster response), but if you are trying to fly precise that is not the way to go.

Find out what your engine can do, stay below that, use a governor, and you will maintain that rpm in most cases unless you full power and full cyclic over which really stalls the blades and you shouldn't be doing that anyways.

Yes, weight, temperature and all that has to do with it somewhat as well, but you can stay below that max rpm that you get and you will get consistancy. That is my advice.

-=>Raja.

MA 1005 Hanson 280, 4154 flts
Spectra 27 3DMax, 3230 flts
Whiplash V1 Hanson 300, 1485 flts
Whiplash V2 Hanson 300, 254 flts

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11-25-2006 05:38 PM  11 years agoPost 38
GREYEAGLE

rrElite Veteran

Flat Land's

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I read everyones advice : Weigh & Measure, then make my own conclusion.

What I did was to smooth out my curves, using the mark one eye ball, the pitch gage and the percentages in the screen / watching the pitch guage as I dialed. So that I wasn't making stair step pitch changes via the / pitch guage as my prime measurement.

Changed em both : Same across the board :

STD : 1005

1 -5
2 0
3 +4
4 +7
5 +10

1005 SE w Hanson

1 -5
2 -2
3 +3
4 +6
5 +10

One thing I did notice is that when their cold " 50 degree and untill they take a bit of heat , they are a bit fat bit of smoke - : Burbel - when heat soaked then they come right out of it and run hard.

My idle is so low I actually have to put my finger over the bugger hole. Kinda like a 4- stroke on CD ignition. -it's ridiculous.

Pitch is exactley when you ask for it/ where you ask for it / and no hesitation, reponce is instant with no falling bottom or dogging top - even when you pump it and show no mercy > what so ever.

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11-26-2006 05:05 AM  11 years agoPost 39
N110WA

rrNovice

Albia, IA

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X-Cell 1005 Graphite

GREYEAGLE

Would you post your throttle curves ? I'm seting up my x-cell and would like a starting place. I have a G23 in it. I'm going to put a governor on it but I don't know if i'll get a TJ or the GV1. I have the TJ on my raptor and it works great

Thanks

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11-26-2006 02:28 PM  11 years agoPost 40
AceBird

rrElite Veteran

Utica, NY USA

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Find out what your engine can do, stay below that, use a governor, and you will maintain that rpm in most cases unless you full power and full cyclic over which really stalls the blades and you shouldn't be doing that anyways.
Raja, I think we are saying the same thing except as a newbie I would recommend to a newbie not to get a governor until you have a good warm and fussy with the curve method.

Your last statement about full collective and full cyclic ... Isn't that what you 3D'ers are doing when you flip inverted from a take off stance?

Ace
What could be more fun?

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