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HelicopterAerobatic 3D Contest › cyclic ring importance for chaos?
11-20-2006 09:42 PM  11 years agoPost 21
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Here's a break down of the yaw and cyclic throughout a single stir full piroflip -

First the separate cyclic and yaw commands -

Starting upright/tail-in let's give fore cyclic to flip the heli to skids-in/nose-down - Now give left yaw to piro the heli to skids-in/nose-left -

Next give right cyclic to roll the heli to inverted/nose-left - Now give left yaw again until the heli is tail-in - The heli is now inverted/tail-in -

Next give aft cyclic to flip the heli to disk-in/nose-up - Now left yaw again to position the heli nose-right - The heli is now disk-in/nose-right -

Next give left cyclic to roll the heli to upright/nose-right - Now left yaw again to position the heli tail-in again - The heli is now upright/tail-in as it was when we started -

Now let's put it all together continuous with stirring -

From upright/tail-in we give fore cyclic and left yaw sync'ing the yaw with 1/4 CW cyclic stir to position the heli skids-in/nose-left - The heli is now side-in to us in the roll position with our cyclic stick also in the roll-right command position -

Next 1/4 CW cyclic stir sync'ed with the yaw of the heli positions the heli inverted/tail-in - The heli is now in the flip position with our cyclic stick also in the aft-flip command position -

Next 1/4 CW cyclic stir sync'ed with the yaw of the heli positions the heli disk-in/nose-right - The heli is now in the roll position with our cyclic stock also in the roll-left command position -

Next 1/4 CW cyclic stir sync'ed with the yaw of the heli positions the heli upright/tail-in again -

-

But it's the size of the cyclic stirs that determines how much of the flip will be completed with each pirouette - Smaller stirs produce smaller flip portions per stir resulting in more piros per flip - Larger stirs produce larger flip portions per stir resulting in fewer piros per flip.

-

I have to say that a single stir full piroflip is actually very difficult to coordinate - I used it as example here to break the piroflip down into it's most basic form - For beginners just learning to piroflip I recommend starting with 2 stirs per full flip as this is actually much easier to coordinate (first stir takes heli from upright/tail-in to inverted/nose-in and second stir takes heli from inverted/nose-in to upright/tail-in again).

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11-20-2006 10:04 PM  11 years agoPost 22
Droid

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Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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Ok so i did the difficult bit?!?!?!

A bit like doing a single piro loop?

Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement

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11-20-2006 10:07 PM  11 years agoPost 23
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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If you're saying you performed a single stir full piroflip then I say yes you performed the most difficult version IMO - You either have to do it slow in like a loop or so fast that it's nearly impossible to realize exactly whats going on -

The 2 stirs per full flip version is easiest I think -

The 4 stirs per full flip version is the most controlled version but is complicated by more stirs and knife-edge so not so easy to learn with either -

Learn the 2 stirs version first then the 4 stirs version then on to as many tiny stirs as you like - But the 1 stir version is mostly a waste IMO as it's either too fast and/or ugly to bother with.

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11-20-2006 10:34 PM  11 years agoPost 24
Droid

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Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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My brain must be backwards!!

The single stir per piro looks very slow in comparison to an Alan Szabo Chaos...

..what am i missing?

Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement

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11-20-2006 11:28 PM  11 years agoPost 25
Micro-Maniac

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Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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Maybe you're confusing tumble rate with tumble complexity - ASJ's piroflips probably look fast to you because he does 4 piros in a single flip (4 cyclic stirs) - Maybe if you pick out the individual piros/stirs you would see it differently -

Starting upright/tail-in -
First cyclic stir and piro positions the heli skids-in/nose-down-
Second cyclic stir and piro positions the heli inverted/nose-in -
Third cyclic stir and piro positions the heli disk-in/nose-up -
Fourth cyclic stir and piro positions the heli upright/tail-in -

So that's four stirs and piros in only a single full flip.

A lot going on there compared to a single stir full flip.

But as said you can do any piroflip at any rate - So you may indeed be doing single stir full piroflips slower than ASJ's 4 stir full piroflips - But how pretty?

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11-20-2006 11:32 PM  11 years agoPost 26
Droid

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Deep down in the Southwest- UK

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Got it! Ta

Quotes may have been changed for my own amusement

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11-21-2006 12:33 AM  11 years agoPost 27
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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And if you haven't noticed already - The single stir full piroflip that I described before is similar to a simple roll but with the tail swinging around in a sort of S shape - Piroflipping from upright/tail-in to inverted/tail-in is a longer route to just simply rolling to inverted - But same with all piroflips only not as noticable.

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01-14-2007 07:04 PM  11 years agoPost 28
catzazz

rrApprentice

Vancouver Island, BC, Canada

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I have found that it pays to learn collective management and stationary flips/rolls, moving the heli around in a controlled manner while pirouetting.

Collective management

Collective management is all about TIMING the movements from upright to inverted (or visa versa) or other things with the cyclic movement you are doing.

Good collective management is timing AND also not going to extremes of the pitch range.

Stationary Flip or Roll

Stationary Flip or Roll are great ways to learn collective management, this is the timing you want.

1) Bump tiny bit of positive in just before rolling (or flipping) which will put some up energy in to the heli and keep it from dropping fast as you transition.

2) As you are rolling, start the transition from positive to negative so when it's on the sides you should be a 0 pitch.
Pitch at this point will push the heli right or left depending on pitch.

3) Moving to inverted from side you should be moving into negative use just enough negative so the heli does not climb.

4) When going back to the heli being on side the transition is just like #2.

5) Obviously your now right side up so back to where you started.

You can do an ugly flip by pushing full positive on the collective, giving you max positive pitch, slam the cyclic to the rear ALL the way, when the heli is inverted then slam the collective full negative (full negative pitch) and then slam back to full positive, and you are really overloading the motor.

The alternative is very gentle positive pitch increase with slight back cyclic; while the heli is flipping over gradually adjust the collective stick down to give slight negative then again back up to give slight positive and so forth. Very smooth, and you are barely loading the motor much more than to maintain a hover would. Apply the same principles to all 3D moves and you will find it much easier.

Piro-Flips

Once you get in to a hover push the rudder one direction to keep a constant piro rate, once you finish one piro start a circle with the cyclic at the same rate you are rotating the pirouette, left rudder move stick in clockwise direction, right rudder counter-clockwise.

Most people first learn "controlled" piro flips at a slower rudder rate. In my opinion this is the best way to learn.

However before doing this it helps to learn how to piro and move the heli around "controlled" while piroing right side up then invited BEFORE trying to piro flip.

People go about it differently, some just have a natural knack for 3d, and others don't. Like me.

Cheers, Mark M,
http://www.pdqflyers.com

Fly like you borrowed it!! Land like you stole it!! visit www.virc.ca

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04-05-2007 03:12 PM  10 years agoPost 29
schoenju

rrApprentice

Springfield, oregon USA

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This hobby never ceases to amaze me. There is so much to learn out there.

Justin Schoenberg

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04-29-2007 12:36 PM  10 years agoPost 30
Bad Karma

rrVeteran

UK

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Its not so much how far you move the stick towards the limits, its how fast you move it around the circle that matters, the faster your piro the faster you have to move it around the circle to maintain the piro/flip ratio that you have chosen.

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04-29-2007 06:21 PM  10 years agoPost 31
Micro-Maniac

rrElite Veteran

Pasco,Washington Formerly: Captain Chaos

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The speed of the cyclic stir is dependant on the speed of the pirouette - The stir has to be synchronized with the pirouette of the heli or the heli won't tumble correctly - It'll just wobble or tumble in various directions and possibly never actually complete an axial flip -

The size of the stir controls the rate of the flip - Just like performing a regular flip - The more stick you give the more the heli will tumble - When doing piroflips the larger the stir you input the more the heli will tumble as well regardless of how fast the heli is pirouetting - That's part of how you control the number of pirouettes per single flip -

Small Stir = Less Flip Per Piro/Stir = More Piros/Stirs Per Flip
Large Stir = More Flip Per Piro/Stir = Fewer Piros/Stirs Per Flip
 

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05-04-2007 02:56 PM  10 years agoPost 32
w.pasman

rrElite Veteran

Netherlands

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how useful are cyclic rings to doing this move well?
Cyclic rings enable you to *increase* the flip/roll rate of your heli.
It depends on what you mean by "help to do this move well" whether the ring helps you.

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HelicopterAerobatic 3D Contest › cyclic ring importance for chaos?
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