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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › Zenoah gas motor tuning.
03-12-2003 11:08 PM  14 years agoPost 21
Al Magaloff

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dag, the 603 seems to appreciate less oil. Bill's 64:1 is a good mix. That's 2oz for one gallon.

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03-12-2003 11:20 PM  14 years agoPost 22
daggit

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Claremont, MN

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ok, thats 2 votes for that mix.... that's enough for me

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03-15-2003 03:42 PM  14 years agoPost 23
daggit

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Claremont, MN

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test flights successful..

I was out flying the gasser with the new carb. Runs great!

I tried the high needle settings in a few different positions. To me the motor sounds perfect but we have what I'll call "mini-wag", and some drift in heading hold. I'm having a hard time believing it's a motor tuning issue. I double checked my rudder setup to be sure it was correct. I am running a JR g550t with the 8700 servo.

I'm about ready to slap the gy401 on there and be done with this issue. I bet $50 that would clear ut up I've NEVER had issues with the 401

heading out to the field again... it's warm, windy and sloppy.. ewe!

landed the Rappy on the grass and when I went to take off again one skid was stuck in the mud! ... back to the tarmac!!

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03-15-2003 08:05 PM  14 years agoPost 24
Al Magaloff

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Dag, good job! Keep putting time on it, it will only get better. Go with the GY401. The 550 seems to always have issues, and a gasser "needs" a solid gyro.

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03-16-2003 03:31 AM  14 years agoPost 25
Billme

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MS

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Good job Daggit ! Do what Al say's, and enjoy
Regards,
Bill

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03-16-2003 09:56 PM  14 years agoPost 26
daggit

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Claremont, MN

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UPDATE!!

WOW!!

What an awesome weekend! Super nice out! we flew and flew and flew! Beat the hell out of the Rappy 39!

as for the update on the gasser... A few more tanks run through it... man I love this bird! The tail wag is gone after some tuning, but the tail drift remains.

GY401.... here I come

.

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03-23-2003 08:07 PM  14 years agoPost 27
helidog

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usa

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To all you gasser flyers with fuel mixture problems

Please correct me if I am wrong, agree or disagree.
In my years of road racing, dirt biking, ect one thing is for sure a gas engine is very different than glo fuel engine. I have a new X-CELL gasser on order with the new updated engine. I have read just about all of the tuning problems with the gassers.
My thought is this. To get the best performance with a gas engine takes time and sometimes gets very frustrating. Back in my racing days the best way to get that performance was tying the bike to a (DYNO). To get the best performance with your heli you will have to do the same. When you are hovering there is not much of a load on the engine. Full pitch is where the engine sees the load. Decrease the pitch the load follows since we all don’t have a dyno in our garage the next best thing is to build a test bench that you can tie you heli to. You could spend all day or week trying to get your best performance on the high end of your engine rpm without having a constant load on the engine. Try this. Set the heli on a test bench out in your yard or open garage. (KEEP EVERY ONE AWAY). Start it up and run it to full throttle and full pitch. KEEP your head, ears, fingers close. Also safety glasses and hearing protection. Your ears will be more sensitive to engine rpm changes during tuning if you have hearing protection.
Start with your hi end needle (Rich). Slowly lean out the high end while at full throttle and full pitch. If you hear the rpm start to slow down you leaned it too far, turn your needle back until you hear the rpm go back up. Once you get to this point go to your hover position and do the same. Your hover position should be a needle mixture of the low end needle. Let it run in the hover position for awhile than bring your rpm up to full again if it hesitates you will have to adjust your low end needle. This will all take time you will not get it the first time. This is just a start; you still have to keep a close eye on your spark plug. Once you learn to read your spark plug you will have a good chance at getting it right on. Black plug rich- white plug lean- gray plug darn close.
One other thing that is very important is the oil mix. AMSOIL 100to1. It’s good.
For a few cents more don’t skimp, get AMSOIL series 2000 racing two stroke oil.
You can mix this between 60-1 to 80-1 mix this stuff is made for extreme heat and high rpm. The heli engine is based on a weed eater engine the only difference is about twice the rpm and more heat especially if you gasser has a cowling. Just remember any engines worst enemy is heat and hi rpm. Once you take your heli off of the test bench you will have to remember one thing. When you had it tied down that was the ultimate load on the engine. Now that you are back to a no load situation you will find that your engine might run a little rich on the top end. Fly for a tank with a new plug and see where you are if you have to lean the top end a little. If you have a camera ship you might not have to change at all. There is a lot more to it then this but this should help you get started. start at the top of and work your way down when it comes to engine tuning.

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03-23-2003 08:18 PM  14 years agoPost 28
daggit

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Claremont, MN

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Sounds like some good advice coming from an experienced engine tuner.

However, I'm too chicken to tie my heli down.

.

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03-23-2003 08:46 PM  14 years agoPost 29
helidog

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usa

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daggit
Engines are engines no mater what the size.
I just know it worked on the big ones it should work on the little ones the same way.
I have also done this to some extent on my glo engines.
I will keep you updated on this when I get my new X-CELL GASSER.
Maybe I will write back to you all and tell you,(BOY AM I DUMB) HA HA HA
When I get everything going I will write a full report of my findings, If I can help others with this I will. If someone has tried this with the gassers please let me know.

As far as tying the heli down that’s the easy part. Build a stand about five feet high. Take a router and cut slots for your gear to sit in. cut a piece of plywood that fits between the inside of your skid area let it hang ever a few inches. Drill holes all the way through the wood and bolt the two plates together. (DO NOT USE WOOD SCREWS OR CLAMPS)
This will keep the bird from flying away. Just make sure your stand is heavy and has a good base so it will not tip. A well tuned gas heli could lift 20 to 30 lbs so make it heavy.
Also keep your head down.

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03-23-2003 08:50 PM  14 years agoPost 30
Al Magaloff

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Tying a helicopter down is just plain BAD advice coming from someone not familiar with the physics and dynamics of a helicopter. Also, power tuning a motor that is not broke in yet will no doubt result in............... a broke motor. These Zenoahs take 4-8 gallons to break-in properly. I would reframe from leaning it for max power, until break-in is complete. As always though, YMMV.

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03-24-2003 01:17 AM  14 years agoPost 31
helidog

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usa

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Rchelial

Please explain the physics and dynamics of a helicopter to me. What is wrong with tying it down? It’s not like you will be running it for a week like that. I have done this with my other glo engine helis without any problems.

As for gas engines go. I have built and raced enough large engines to know that if you run them too rich you can also stick rings and cause engine failure. This is also true with the smaller engines. When breaking in an engine you have to make sure you don’t over heat the engine, also caused by running lean. You have to run through the whole rpm range when breaking in an engine. This way the rings get seated. The spark plug is the one that tells all. Running to rich is just as bad as running lean in some respects. Running rich causes fouled plugs and carbon build up and broken rings. NOT GOOD
You don’t just run it for all it’s worth. If it’s new out of the box. You have to let the engine components work in. (Think of this)
how many of these weed eater engines do you think are broke in when people get them home from WAL-MART and use the to trim there lawn.
(( NOT )). This is one other thing to look at. Some of the smaller engines will not break in if you baby them. You can even look at some of the break in directions for those engines. It will tell you to run full throttle and don’t idle it around. ASK why
HEAT build up is one of them.

As for the heli engines you should run the first few tank rich. After that start to lean them out slowly.
You might have to pull the plug 20 times to check to see how the engine is running. You can’t tell just by running 8 gallons of fuel. Also oil choice and mix ratio is a big one . The more oil you use the hotter a two stroke engine will run. That’s a fact. You can learn that in your first year of small engine class. That I had taken some 20 years ago. Engines are better built now then they were 20 years ago also.
The engines biggest enemy is heat. Cutting back on oil decrease the heat.

I might not know the physics and dynamics of a helicopter, but I do know engines. One more thing on oil and mix ratios. If you are using AMSOIL series 2000 racing oil you will find that an 80 to 1 mix might still be rich depending on altitude and temperature. I could write a book on engine tuning.
Everyone has there way of doing it. You have to look at all the variables before you start engine tuning, and yes in some respects some people should not even try. Butt if you don’t try you don’t learn.
I also have a small makeshift dyno, just for testing weed eater engines. I have not locked a one of my test engines yet.
Then again I could be wrong. I will find out when I get my X-CELL gasser.
Did I mention that I am also an mechanic?

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03-24-2003 05:04 AM  14 years agoPost 32
vulpi

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PARIS

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ohhh
iwould never ever tie down my XL gas and run it full pitch and full throttle !!!

Actually i think thats a really dangerous way to tune a heli engine , no one should do this .

Let alone the stress on the main frame, landing gear , screw and all other parts , at least i wont do it those heli are kinda expensive...

What would happen with a 23cc gasser running full throttle at ground level if something break?

Think of it twice and try tuning your engine by sound ,spark plug reading etc,we got some of the best gasser goroo here plenty of infos

GL and be safe !!

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03-24-2003 10:05 AM  14 years agoPost 33
helidog

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usa

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Just to clear up a few things on my last input to this conversation.

First thing. In my last input I had a said something about heat buildup in off the shelf weed eater engines and how you should run them at full rpm. The reason for this is two things. Insufficient cooling at low RPM and also a big distributor to this heat build up is the oil mix ratio at some 32 to 1 or so for some of these engines. Like we all know too much oil causes heat build up. One other thing is brake in period on these engines,
I had looked up the Zenoah tuning manual on there web page

If you read close it will tell you that there is no break in period for these engines. They are gradually broke in with use. Yes this doesn’t mean run them lean right out of the box. But there is one thing for sure you do not have to run four to eight gallons of fuel through them to break them in. unless the manufactures manual is wrong,

And furthermore that would be just plain BAD advice coming from someone not familiar with the physics and dynamics of an internal combustion engine.

Yes I might be wrong in tying a heli down, butt I had also stated safety and also I had never mentioned anything about running them up at ground level. Five foot on a test stand is not ground level.

Before I can defend my self on this a quick phone call to the specific heli manufacture will clear this up. I would like to see how they test there setup.

vulpi
As far as expensive parts a two to three hundred $ engine is nothing. In years past I had built five and ten thousand dollar race engines. That’s expensive.

Please remember one thing this is not rocket science that we are dealing with it’s a hobby
We all have our opinions and our way of doing things. For all the readers out there I can guarantee one thing I’m sure of
(( we are all experts ))

At least we think we are.
RIGHT

I would like to clear up a typo on the bottom line of my last input to this. Is should read.

Did I mention that I am also a mechanic?

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03-24-2003 10:22 AM  14 years agoPost 34
Al Magaloff

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12,199 Posts- Enough Time Wasted. See Ya!

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YMMV

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03-24-2003 04:21 PM  14 years agoPost 35
Smithprod

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Oklahoma

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I've strapped down plenty of helis over the years and I've never had a problem. I use a 6 foot ladder and tie weights to the legs and it's impossible to stand up into the blades. I always wear a motorcycle helmet to be on the safe side.

Take a look in Ray's manual and see how he tunes his helis. Yep, strapped down to a ladder. If I didn't think my heli could handle be strapped down, I damn sure wouldn't be flying it around with a camera mount.

Bottom line, if you don't feel safe doing it: don't do it!

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03-24-2003 06:31 PM  14 years agoPost 36
helidog

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usa

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I don’t want to sound like a now it all, or even a smart A - -.
That is not my intentions so please don’t think it is

I have been in the r/c flying game for 26 years or so. I had flown helis before gyros where on the market. I was out of flying helis for about 15 years and got back into it.

Grant you I have probably forgotten more than most people know.

Butt than again we all don’t know everything and learn something new everyday if we chose to listen

One thing for sure, there is a lot of methods and Tec tricks to this game. I don’t claim to know them all butt I do Know a few. And I always look, listen and read every ones ideas. Some good some bad.

Just like Smithprod said

(( Bottom line, if you don't feel safe doing it: don't do it!))

I have also learned that you gain more respect from people when you listen and try to solve problems (( NOT CRITICIZE THERE IDEAS)).

Well smithprod Looks like you and I agree on one thing.
You know that means

It must be BAD advice coming from someone like us not familiar with the physics and dynamics of a helicopters.

HA HA

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03-25-2003 03:58 AM  14 years agoPost 37
Al Magaloff

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What exactly does strapping a heli to a ladder teach you? Are you peaking the high speed like a plank, then going richer?

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07-08-2012 09:34 PM  5 years agoPost 38
vo2run

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Fairfield, CA USA

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X-cell changing original muffler.....

I have an x-cell 1005 Graphite gasser that I'm converted to a scale MD500 and I had to change the muffler with a double riser to fit the fuselage.The first run test, the rpm will stall before throttle mid range. Tried to play and adjust the mixtures, no success. Just wondering, can a wrong muffler would do this or should I change the fuel and oil ratio? I'm using 40:1. Any help will greatly appreciated...

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08-26-2015 09:15 AM  25 months agoPost 39
Ankit Bhalla

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Delhi,India

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Zenoah G23 Engine

Sir, I have Zenoah G23 Engine, I have lost my standard settings of high needle as well as low needle. Now when ever the engine runs its runs for some 2-3 secs and gets off. It doesn't stop at idle RPM. Please tell me how to tune my engine at optimum settings

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08-26-2015 01:11 PM  25 months agoPost 40
PaulBowen

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East coast Australia.

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I believe the biggest problem is from over rich oil mixes and expecting far too much power and running excessive rpm.

At the end of the day engines are just machines designed to do a certain amount of work. Ask too much of them and they will eventually break.

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