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HelicopterBergen R/C Helicopters › CSM 560 V4 Gyro OK for Gasser
12-05-2005 12:49 AM  12 years agoPost 1
BigNev

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Hertfordshire -U.K.

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I have a Bergen Intrepid Gasser (231 PUH) in the UK. I dont fly it much as I am still learning (nose in stuff now with my Raptor 30) I like to get a couple of flights with the gas, do a bit of lazy 8's and big ovals side on etc. on my sunday at the flying club, the gasser has a CSM 560 V4 gyro + JR 8700G both fitted new about 4'ish months ago, when I first got the bergen up and running I had lots of tail binding probs, (old style tail mech with belt drive + binding pitch change mech = fear +crash)
got all that sorted eventually, and enjoyed a couple of tanks of really smooth flying. (I really do love the Bergen Gasser )

TODAY at the club - got her started, run her up a bit to warm her thru, up into a nice hover, little bit of left & right side on, then pushed into a bit of forward flight turned tail to right + mild bank right, leveled out to tail turn again - then bang 45 deg yaw clockwise for no reason (nearly tipped her over into the ground) landed - got myself composed, up into a hover again 30-45 secs and violent tail swing again.

PACKED UP & WENT HOME !

can anyone help with this tail prob, should I try a Futaba 401 ?
I cannot afford to crash this baby because of a gyro glitch, I have spent a fortune building this up like new from second hand, and the only problem I have is that the tail just don't feel right (both my Raptors have a light but confident HH feel to them) the gasser is tuned well I think and runs very smoothly with no coughing or 4 stroking.
It seems to be an intermittent wag for no reason. (could it be amb temb as winter at the moment = 4-6 deg centigrade
HELP PLEASE !

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12-05-2005 01:03 AM  12 years agoPost 2
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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We have not had a lot of luck with CSM 540 or 560 gyros on the gassers. They tend to be very disturbed by the inherent vibrations of the motors.

Try using the green Zeal anti-vibration absorbing gel under the gyro, and might give Bob J a buzz, I believe he has setup help with the CSM's and gassers (something to do with changing the delay?).

Other than that, try a 401, using the setup procedure here, http://runryder.com/helicopter/t200069p1/ .

Chris D. Bergen

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12-05-2005 01:21 AM  12 years agoPost 3
BigNev

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Hertfordshire -U.K.

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Thank you Chris

I have only seen some flying from the IRCHA dvd's regarding the Bergen gas, am I right in thinking that you, Mal and others all use the 401 or better
I cant really describe the problem that well but, the gasser lifts up into a lovelly hover (it does bob up and down a little) the engine runs sweet, cyclic is smooth, and just hovering around a bit is GR8.
she is a big girl but I love her size and feel compared to the Raptors I have.
The tail though is just a constant fear factor at the moment, it never feels light and smooth like the Raptors, the response to L - R commands is un-nerving and erratic at the best of times.
I would just like to be able to fly her once in a while for a treat, and have a tail that is stable and reliable (I am not trying to wind up the head speed and do 3D) I just want to have a nice slow, safe buzz around the field and enjoy my Bergen at a basic clubman skill level

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12-07-2005 12:08 AM  12 years agoPost 4
rotor- shark

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uk

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i don't normally post here because i don't have a bergan,or any gasser actually,but i have had the same problems that you had with the 560 gyro in a few different helicopters.can i ask a question? does the tail erratically swing the same way each time? does it do it just AFTER you have moved the rudder stick back to centre from a tail command? if so then that is because the mechanical rudder trim is way to far to the left or right.what happens is that the gyro returns to a false centre that is actually pirouetting to the right when you let go of the rudder stick,it then realises that it is turning and corrects it.you will find that it will always go the same way,no matter whether you move the rudder left or right.if you adjust the trim linkage in normal mode so that the tail is still,it will cure this problem.i get the feeling from your symptoms you describe that this is your problem.

all comments are my opinion only!

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12-07-2005 08:51 AM  12 years agoPost 5
Colin Mill

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England

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If you look at the following two threads:-

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t201022p1/

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t208716p1/

you will see that the 401 is not immune to the problems of vibrational precession and in the PGasser mentioned in these threads the 560 actually faired better. The anti-vibration mount (part no. CSM070) was primarily designed for the SL720 gyro but applicable to any gyro that will fit on a 30mm square area. Typically this reduces the level of engine-frequency vibration reaching the gyro by a factor of five.

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12-07-2005 01:36 PM  12 years agoPost 6
BigNev

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Hertfordshire -U.K.

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Thank you all very much for the input on my tail trouble (my wife seems to think that most of it is due to a very hot curry on a saturday night). My Gyro setup is the CSM 560 micro V4 on the CSM vibration reducuing mount with JR 8700G. I spent some time on the beast, and fully grounded the tail with a wire from the far end of the boom, front of boom all to engine and triple bearing block - anti static spray on tail. Got a chance to test fly on tuesday afternoon, she starts lovely by the way - throttle fully shut to choke (run a big K&N style air filter) a few pulls till she coughs, then switch on throttle to idle, 2 or 3 more pulls and woof. So warm up a bit and all seems well with no twitching, spool up and switch in HH (i notice as per rotor shark that the point the tail linkage parks in normal mode is different to where it is in HH when in a stable tail in hover - thanks for that & 2 bee investigated)
so slowly up into a hover about 5 inches from the ground and SH*T the thing starts to piroutte again, drop the collective slowly and fortunately just catch it right with a bit of right aileron to stop her tipping over. Take a big breath and walk over for inspection -TAIL BELT is sticking out of back of the gearbox. went home very thank full still in one piece from yet another near terminal experience.
Now new belt on order from john at multicom - (this one was fitted when I bought her 2nd hand off e-bay) so I suppose should of changed it when I did the rebuild, by the way I found that the belt had about an 8 inch part of it where the break was that would pull apart easily.
So thank you all very much, and I now have a few more ideas to try as soon as the beast is belted up.
Dont miss the next hopefully less exiting episode of UK tail trouble.

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12-07-2005 02:54 PM  12 years agoPost 7
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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Good save!!

Now that Colin Mills himself is here, maybe we can get the CSM gyros working on these gassers.

Any recommendations on placement or programming? We have recommended the use of the Green Zeal Tape under the 401's to eliminate any vibration causing drift, and put up a suggested mechanical setup as well to eliminate the "hot servo" problem.

I still use an old CSM 360 gyro on my nitro bird. I have seen no reason to change it over, except that the sticker is long gone!! With a 4131 servo it holds like crazy glue!

Chris D. Bergen

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02-10-2006 06:14 AM  11 years agoPost 8
BigNev

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Hertfordshire -U.K.

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Update 1
Hi all, finally got a tail drive belt from john at multicom as it appears that larry has no more of the original spare part. It is a Bando poly belt, like the sort fitted to the Raptors. Not sure if this is gonna be better or worse than the rubber Gates original (time will tell ) only had a couple of 20 min flights so far but belt seems good.
GYRO -
now have the awesome CSM 720 fitted with a near new JR 8700G + the supplied anti-vibration mount platform. this is GR8 !!!!
the heli setup has not been changed, just the gyro swap and the tail is so nice now, no flicking, nice smooth response, no drift even on a real hard stick full up vertical climb, nice hard stop after a piroutte.
very pleased with the standard set-up plus the vibe filter is on, am gonna try it this weekend with filter off just to see.
nice to get my big bird finally feeling nice in the air.
will keep the updates coming
thanks chris for the bergen advice, and thanks to colin and rob for the gyro advice.

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02-12-2006 10:36 PM  11 years agoPost 9
gigi

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Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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For what its worth...

I had a CSM 540 (big case) on my Intrepid. It worked quite well enough in concert with a JR 8700 tail servo, but after I added a Futaba GV-1 and a Stator Gator to the machine, it became unflyable.

I know this sounds incredible, and doesn't seem to make sense. However, it's a fact that disconnecting the Stator Gator instantly cured the violtently twitching tail, and nothing else would make it work. I had even purchased the special CSM tape for it, but the problem was not due to vibrations, but to some electronical mystery.

I have never had a tail problem since I dropped in a GY401 in that machine, even though I can't run it in Digital Servo mode, since the 8700 doesn't like it when the system is initialized, and goes hard-over and binds things up.

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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02-14-2006 02:23 PM  11 years agoPost 10
BigNev

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Hertfordshire -U.K.

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I know exactly where you are coming from, I tried the CSM revlock with the correct version stator gator on my gasser. it did not like it one bit had the sensetivety turned down max and still had problems with violent hunting on the throttle.
I dont do any 3D as I am still a novice, so I took it off for now and just run a fairly mild throttle curve with a JR591 servo.
I have revlocks fitted to both my Raptors and from my experience they seem to like very fast servo's.
I will at a later date re-install it all with maybe a JR810g and have another go setting it up.
Had nearly 40 minutes flying the other morning in fairly windy conditions and the tail was spot on.
no heating of the servo, smooth tail response, even spent a good 20 minutes practicing lazy 8's as I am trying to get my BMFA 'A' cert this summer. very pleased with the new CSM720 gyro and the JR8700 seems to be behaving well.
I have moved the throttle mid point up slightly for hovering, I dont know exactly the head speed but it should be about 1550 - 1580 this has helped a lot with the bobbing troubles that I have had. I have an 14 kg servo on the pitch. my model is the sport so can only run 685 mm blades

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HelicopterBergen R/C Helicopters › CSM 560 V4 Gyro OK for Gasser
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