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12-01-2005 04:23 AM  12 years agoPost 1
TeaMan

rrNovice

International Falls, MN, US

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I'm looking to purchase my first helicopter. A friend that has been helping me a lot suggested that I post what I have put together from the advice I recieved from a lot of you. I'm looking for feedback on the parts I have put together to get started. Did I miss anything? Anything not look right? Anything I should change. I'm also still debating between the Raven and the Falcon. I like the Falcon because the controls are more authentic and the Raven because it is more high tech. Any opinions here are welcome also.

CN1050A Falcon SE V2 50 or Raven CCPM 50
OSMG1950 O.S 50 SX-H ENGINE W/1 OS #8 PLUG
CN3033B TORPEDO SPEED HV MUFFLER (46-50)
JRP9251**] 9303 FM Heli R649 & 4-811 Digital Servos 
JRPG500TC1 JR 500T Gyro with S810G servo combo
0060-013 Reflex XTR Simulator - JR
CN 2047DM Heli-Mini Starting Pack
CN 2046 14 Piece tool kit
CN 2255 Control Rod setup gauge
CN 2025BS Blue thread lock
CN 2006 Main Rotor Blade holder (large)
CN 2007A Training Gear II 30/50 Hawksport & Pro

Thanks
TeaMan

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12-01-2005 05:47 AM  12 years agoPost 2
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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I'm not sure what you mean by the Falcon as having more "authentic" controls then the "hi tech" Raven.

They are the same heli essentially, except the Falcon has a mechanical mixed setup whereas the Raven has a electronically mixed setup.

The Raven has less parts, is claimed to have much quicker cyclic response due to the direct connection of the servos to the control surfaces and while I haven't personally weighed both, I'd hedge to bet the Raven is a tad bit lighter then the Falcon given all else being equal.

If you have a severe enough crash with the Raven you might need to replace stripped servo gears whereas in the Falcon, usually linkages pop off before any major impact force reaches the servo itself.

Both fly fantasically and are very durable.

The Control Rod setup tool really is unecessary. You can just use a metric ruler and save the money for either a higher quality tool or fuel.

For training gear I always insist on using a large hula-hoop (from toy store, wal-mart, etc) and 5/16" or equivalent wooden dowels (hardware store, craft store) and it'll cost under $6. It provides a full 360* of protection and if you do get a bit nervous on the controls, and the hoop touches the ground it buys you a bit more time to make a cirrection before the blades dig in. Also, the hula-hoop won't fold-up like the typical whiffle-ball and sticks setups are prone to doing. Also, the Roto-Pod is a waste of money. After you learn to hover and land softly, the training gear won't be needed unless you want the extra protection while practicing nose-in hovering. Otherwise, someone else borrows it or it collects dust.

Get a good starter extension like the Robbe one-way version at Rick's. It's $64 or so, but the hex bit won't strip or round off like the Century versions do (I've had it happen to two of them).

When you can afford, but quality tools. It'll afford the hardware extra life by preventing stripping and you won't have to keep replacing crap tools when then round off. I use Whia ball-end allen drivers to quickly remove already loose fasteners or get them starter, and then to break something loose or do final torque I use Hudy Profitools allen drivers. The Hudy's have hardend tips and the blades are replaceable if per chance you do break it.

Also get a upgraded Receiver and Transmitter pack. I use a 2400mah NiCD 6vdc pack in my heli and a 2300mah NiMH for my Transmitter. Yuo can check cheapbatteries.com or batteriesamerica.com. The batterys that come with the radio are vastly below par for use in a heli application especially with digital servos.

Get some spare #8 plugs (3 or so would be good). You can find them on Ebay for cheap.

Make sure you get a Pitch Gauge, the Century one is pretty chintsy.. I tried it and it was junk.. I switched to a Mavvrick brand copy of Miniature Aircrafts guage, was cheap.

Get The Greaser for all the bearings, if you can afford it. Just do a search on google for this, it's $49.99 and will effectively lube all the heli's bearings

You'll need some Copper Hi-Temp RTV to seal the muffler to the engine.

umm, I'm sure I've missed some stuff.. but overall, buy quality tools, buy quality field equipment (Sullivan starters, Robbe starter extension, etc.) and you'll be much more happy that you didn't buy the cheap junk that everyone else complains about, but thinks they're getting a good deal.

.. if that means waiting longer till you have more money for better stuff, wait. If this all doesn't work out, the better quality stuff will retain it's resale value better then "Made in Hurry" stuff.

..and, welcome and good luck

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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12-01-2005 01:21 PM  12 years agoPost 3
SteveH

rrProfessor

Texas

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And the Falcon/Raven debate goes on.....

TeaMan,

I currently have a Falcon and a Raven, and fly both. These are my views on the two.

1. For all practical purposes, they are the same weight.

2. For all practical purposes, they fly the same. However the Raven is a little quicker to respond than the Falcon due to the Raven using longer servo arms. Notice I said "quicker to respond", I did not say faster. The roll rate is the same. The flip rate is the same. The speed is the same.

3. The Falcon is a little easier IMHO to set up.

4. The Falcon has a little collective to elevator error in the system that needs to be mixed out for inverted flight.

5. Almost always, all three servos installed in a Raven are not exactly the same and need slight end point adjustments made to make it fly straight both right side up and inverted.

6. The Raven frequently comes out tail heavy and needs either a MUCH bigger battery or a radio tray extention to make it ballance out correctly.

In general, I agree with darkfa8, buy the best equipment you can afford, and that holds especially true to radio equipment. Having said that, the only thing on your list that I would recommend upgrading is the 811 servos. If you check on the specs on them you will find they are single ball bearing servos. Dual ball bearing servos will perform better and stay "tighter" for a much longer period of time.

The government cannot give you anything without first taking it from someone else.

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12-01-2005 01:58 PM  12 years agoPost 4
Lefty and Leroy

rrApprentice

Temple, Texas

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Hey TeaMan, if you are just starting out I would suggest getting the simulator first thing, get it set up and start learning. It will help you with your reflexes and orientation. When you get started put a piece of paper and pencil close by. Every time you crash make a mark on the paper. After about thirty minutes count your marks. Each one is equal to about $100.00.

A sim is not like the real thing, but it will help to burn-in natural reflexes that can save you a lot of money when you finally get your Falcon/Raven going.

Oh yea, it’s a lot of fun!
-Jim

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12-01-2005 02:09 PM  12 years agoPost 5
SteveH

rrProfessor

Texas

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Every time you crash make a mark on the paper. After about thirty minutes count your marks. Each one is equal to about $100.00.
Soooo true.

The government cannot give you anything without first taking it from someone else.

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12-01-2005 06:59 PM  12 years agoPost 6
TeaMan

rrNovice

International Falls, MN, US

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Thanks for the feedback. What I meant about authentic darkfa8 was, I used to wrench on helicopters. Worked on UH-1H's. The Falcon belcranks and setup is much like the Huey (authentic). I like the detail and am really looking forward to building and setting one of these things up and seeing just how close they are to the real thing.

SteveH, you recommended upgrading the 811's. What would you suggest? The 8311's are a lot more money, are they worth it for a starter machine? Or did you have something else in mind? After your comparison of the two, maybe I'll go with the Falcon for the 1st machine and maybe get a 90 CCPM gasser for my next toy. Also Century says that the Falcon is more scale friendly which may be fun some day too.

I think this thing will be a Christmas gift from the wife so I'll be getting the helicopter, radio, and sim at the same time. I do plan on spending lots of time on the sim first before trying to fly the helicopter. I'll take my time putting the machine together and have fun with that. I doubt that I'll even start the engine before spring. If I do, it'll be just to start it, and maybe do some tuning.

I'll look into the suggestions. Much appreciated.

TeaMan

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12-01-2005 07:17 PM  12 years agoPost 7
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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Hi TeaMan,,, didn't you say there was a $200 different's in the Radio packages with the 811 and 8311 ??

buying those 8311 in the radio package may cost $200 more than the 811 package, but it's still about a $240 savings over buying those servos 1 at a time,,,

I know $200 can be a lot of money, and then adding it to the amount your going to spend, but then again I remember my friend buying $1200 in digital servos for his RC jet...


it's and expensive hobby, but it so damned cool !!!!!
Jim

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12-01-2005 07:54 PM  12 years agoPost 8
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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Let me chime in on Training Gear. I've used the RotoPod (TM) and seen folks using the hula hoop. My views:

1) It is REALLY tough to get the RotoPod legs to "fold up". I had one incident where I deliberatly grounded the Heli cause I lost control and one leg partially broke where it joins into the center plastic area. I easily inserted a hardwood dowel and repaired it. I have had "landings" hard enough that the Heli has bounced back up in the air - without give I would have likely had a boom strike or landing gear failure. I've had even harder landings where the small RotoPod dowel remained stuck in the ground.

2) With the Hula hoop, if you are at an angle there is no give. I've seen boom strikes because someone hit on an angle a bit too hard.

3) If you are set up poorly (like the gyro is reversed), you'll see this quickly on the RotoPod, long before you get light on the skids. Not so with the hoop.

So, my vote is for the RotoPod, sure it costs more and once you get into FF you'll drop it but for the start it sure is nice and saves money on crashes.

The other option folks don't remember is to get floats for training gear. They are "bouncy", get the Heli a bit higher and also are larger to give more landing area.

Of course if you aren't practising on a SIM then you're going to be spending a lot of money on repairs unneccessarliy (in my view).

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-01-2005 07:56 PM  12 years agoPost 9
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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I've had some pretty good crashes with my Raven, have yet to strip out a gear on the servoes (knock on wood). But then I have all metal gear HiTechs with over 100 OzIn of torque @ 4.8V.

Less expensive servoes with all plastic gears will indeed strip out much easier. I'd go with either Metal or Karbonite gearing.

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-01-2005 08:23 PM  12 years agoPost 10
TeaMan

rrNovice

International Falls, MN, US

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the Wasp
didn't you say there was a $200 different's in the Radio packages with the 811 and 8311 ??
Yes, the 9303 is $499 W/O servo's. $599 W/811's. And $799 W/8311's. The 811's are $34.99 each and the 8311's are $99.99 each. It's $60 cheaper to buy the 8311's with the radio than outright. Prices are from JRradio's themselves. They might be on order already, so I may not be able to change them. I gave a preliminary list to the wife over the weekend and she thought it was a final list. I think she went with the preliminary list.

BC Don, which HiTech's are you running on your Raven?


This is soooooo confusing, but I'm already having fun and I haven't ordered anything yet. Can't wait till I get something to touch. It's like being a kid again, but being able to afford the toys.

TeaMan

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12-01-2005 10:01 PM  12 years agoPost 11
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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TeaMan, the 8311 is way over kill for a 50 size heli, you could buy the Radio less servos, and buy better analog servos such as the JR 8101 ($68 each at Century) (and you still need a throttle servo), I can say I know the Falcon does need a better than standard servo for collective, so I agree with Steve H about the 811's, an 811 could become sloppy rather fast on the collective ,,,

this is the part of the hobby that is frustrating (do I pay less and save, or do I pay more to save and have over kill), you will pay $204 for three 8101's (and you still need a throttle servo), or pay $200 for the 4 8311 in the Radio package, the 8311 is over kill, but it would last a long time,,, I can also tell you you don't want or need an 8311 on the throttle !!

Jim

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12-01-2005 10:09 PM  12 years agoPost 12
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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Did a quick on-line check, appears that I'm using the HS-5625MG. 110Oz, .17s at 4.8V. Tower Hobbies sells the @ $54.99 or 2 for $105.98. I also checked their Karbonite gear digital servoes but they seem too slow. For the Raven with CCPM I believe you want servos that can deliver over 70ozin.

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-02-2005 04:03 AM  12 years agoPost 13
TeaMan

rrNovice

International Falls, MN, US

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Thanks guys. Every day I learn a little more. Appreciate the info.

TeaMan

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12-02-2005 05:58 AM  12 years agoPost 14
wedge

rrElite Veteran

Victoria BC, Canada

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I ve flown my Raven with basic Hitec digital's, HS5475HB's with pretty good results, they are 60oz in of torque and .23 on speed at 4.8v. They are pretty cheap servos, but real good for the money, they are single ballbearings, but then they all stripped in a crash, which wasn't that hard of a crash, I guess it just went in the right way to take out the servos. I then replaced them with better servos.

Victoria BC, Canada, Century Swift,Trex SA 450, Hummingbird V3.

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12-02-2005 06:08 AM  12 years agoPost 15
darkfa8

rrElite Veteran

Brick, NJ - USA

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BC Don, since the Raven is a eCCPM machine and the 3 servos that operate the swash do so in unison, the torque requirements aren't of the same need as a mCCPM machine.

With 3 40oz servos, cumilatively they are capable of handling 120oz. on the swash plate. With 3 70oz servos, you'd have 280oz. of torque to the swash. The speed is all the same, but the torque is cumilative in a eCCPM setup.

So, a slightly less expensive, lower torque, but high speed servo (.20 or less is good) can do a excellent job in this application.

It's not a bad thing to have a 70+oz servo at each connection point, but technically, it's not a requirement.

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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12-02-2005 11:29 PM  12 years agoPost 16
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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Thanks Dan, hadn't thought of that. I've going off some other posts where folks have recommended 70+. But, you are correct, one of the advantages of eCCPM is that all 3 servoes work in unison to provide collective and at least two work together for cyclic.

And, in comparison with the Futaba digital servoes the Hitecs are about 1/2 the price.

Of course in my case most of this is a mute point cause I'm not at the point where I can take advantage of it.

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-03-2005 07:07 AM  12 years agoPost 17
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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I would say it would be nice to have a better than standard servo on the collective for the Hawk/Falcon..

Jim

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12-04-2005 03:42 AM  12 years agoPost 18
MikeInMobile

rrElite Veteran

Mobile, Alabama

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The JR 8101 is an IDEAL servo for CCPM machines since it's movement is MUCH more precise than other servos. Additionally, since the movement is much more precise, all of the servos can be adjusted to be "in-sync", allowing for easier CCPM setup. I use the 8101s on my Raven, and it flies like it is on rails. I fly with a headspeed of 2200 RPM using the Funkey blades available from Century (the silver ones). The JR811 is not really usable on a helicopter for any use other than the throttle. It is WAY too sloppy for any type of precision control (a requirement for helicopters) I have both a Flacon and a Raven 50 ..... both fly well, and performance is comperable. On the Flacon, just make sure that the control geometry is correct, and it will perform flawlessly !

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