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HelicopterOff Topics › It was our soul right to kick Native Americans asses off their land.....
11-28-2005 03:14 PM  12 years agoPost 41
AirWolfRC

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Well, divebomber, You do the puppet masters proud. You have trotted out so many "facts" that you manage to confuse the issue even further.

And here I thought the idea was to give some clarification, not inflame even more.

I don't need to be here.

Wolfgang

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11-28-2005 03:48 PM  12 years agoPost 42
Stet

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yes indeed, he sure confuses those who might take oversimplifications and revisionist history literally.

keepin' it real

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11-28-2005 03:49 PM  12 years agoPost 43
zoom boy

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Stet, dont try that one with me, and dont defend the "might makes right" attitude where ever it is.

The big difference here is that no one has said that it was our right to **** over india, africa or the middle east, and I cant believe that anyone would do.

Here in this thread however there have been people who have said it was their ancestors right to do just the same.

Well it wasnt our ancestors right to do anything they did, and if they did it today they would either be in jail for crimes against humanity or hanging from the end of a rope.

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11-28-2005 04:19 PM  12 years agoPost 44
Stet

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It's not might makes right anyway.

We are fighting for freedom, and fighting the enemy that attacked us killing more than the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. Maybe if things turn out well, Iraq will end up looking more like Japan or Germany when it is all said and done, no thanks to the left PC crowd who has so thoughtfully fallen into the camp of the enemy, siding against American interests and efforts.

Maybe you should read the statements made recently by the King of Jordan regarding Iraq and fighting radical islam terror (you know, the same thing that Sadaam embodied with his support of terrorists in "Palestine").

But feel free to talk trash about the US and suggest that the war is for a profit motive or some other PC-speak that makes you feel superior. Enjoy the freedoms that the US's might makes right actions afforded to you.

NATO bombed the daylights out of Serbia, and none of those leaders are at the end of your proverbial rope either. Why was that action ok if t was not approved by the UN, the embodiment of all that is right in the world?

keepin' it real

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11-28-2005 05:00 PM  12 years agoPost 45
divebomber

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Zoom boy,

Stet hit it on the head, didn't he? The English were the first modern day Imperialists well after the Magna Charta, weren't they? In fact, it was the English 'suspension' of the precepts of the Magna Charta that brought the American Revolution to fruition. And what about the Maldives? Go back and check the fact that Argentina really did have a legitimate claim to those barren islands that a few British whalers had squatted on illegally years before. Yet the Brits took them back by force.

So don't sit there and smuggly proclaim the magnanimous nature of the English. The reality is that your laws are superfulous when the borders are threatened or the political situation warrants otherwise. Whether you like it or not, that's how the world works. And all of the political panacea that is digested by the sheep of the world will not change that.

No where in this thread has anyone taken the stand that it was 'right' to kill anyone. (At least not a serious stand.) However, there are plenty here who pass judgement from the comfort of their computers when all they have to do to find food and water is get up from the chair and go to the fridge. I wonder if you'd be so "high and mighty" if you had to claw your living from the earth everyday? The question of "who's right" makes precious little difference when bullets and arrows are whizzing by your head and Indian raiders take away your daughter to be raped, beat, and enslaved. My guess is that you'd be riding along with the Rangers to exact your revenge and worry about who was 'right' later.

Wolfgang,
I don't need to be here.
That's very true! You finally posted a fact! You need to be cracking a book for your history rather than getting it from Madonna or the CBS Evening News. But then, that takes time and effort, doesn't it?

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11-28-2005 05:12 PM  12 years agoPost 46
zoom boy

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Who said the UN was the embodyment of all that was right????

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11-28-2005 05:19 PM  12 years agoPost 47
zoom boy

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So don't sit there and smuggly proclaim the magnanimous nature of the English.
Didnt proclaim any such thing, infact I have said that if there was any justice then the britains alive during the empire that committed such crimes should have been thrown in prison for crimes against humanity, are you willing to say the same about those of the pilgrims that did similar things to the native americans???
The reality is that your laws are superfulous when the borders are threatened or the political situation warrants otherwise.
No they are not superfulous, and maybe the world would be a better place if people where less convieniently forgetful of morals and laws.
No where in this thread has anyone taken the stand that it was 'right' to kill anyone. (At least not a serious stand.)
So thats a no but yes, but not seriously (hint, look at the title and some responces that followed)

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11-28-2005 05:39 PM  12 years agoPost 48
divebomber

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Zoom Boy,
Didnt proclaim any such thing,
Yes, you did -
In the UK (where the pilgrims came from) we got rid of that idea with courts and justice systems (which are the basis of what is used arround the world today) centuries before the pilgrim fathers left for the US.
Perhaps you forgot? Short term memories are a problem these days.
No they are not superfulous, and maybe the world would be a better place if people where less convieniently forgetful of morals and laws.
And you and the French would be speaking German (twice over). At least you'd all be driving BMW's. Take that back- it would be 'Volkswagons for all'.

Perhaps it would be a better world. Neville Chamberlain certainly thought so as he sold the freedom of the Sudetenland, (and thus Czechoslovakia) to the Nazis. But the greatest fallacy of the modern era is that dispicable tactics can be countered with good intentions. And as much as we wish it were so, it's not. Nor will it be.

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11-28-2005 06:36 PM  12 years agoPost 49
zoom boy

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Acutally I would be speaking russian, not even born yet when vietnam was going on.

Read what was wrote
So don't sit there and smuggly proclaim the magnanimous nature of the English.
Check what magnanimous means then repeat that sentence, what I said was not a comment on being magnanimous, it was to explain that the pilgrims would have been familiar with such systems, and chose to ignore those ideals leading to the indians being displaced on a massive scale in the years that followed, which lasts to this day.

So how about an native american day?

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11-28-2005 08:05 PM  12 years agoPost 50
DOperchal

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People, people can't we all just get along?

Peace through superior firepower

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11-28-2005 08:11 PM  12 years agoPost 51
divebomber

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Zoom boy,
Acutally I would be speaking russian, not even born yet when vietnam was going on.
No. The Russians have not tried to conquer England. Obviously the point missed you. And as for being born after Vietnam, that's obvious.
Read what was wrote
I have, and your comments still make no cohesive point. In fact, I'm still looking for the post in the thread that claims any of the killing was 'right'. Yet you claim it's there. Since you know how to use the "quote" button, perhaps you can enlighten me.
Check what magnanimous means then repeat that sentence
Let's see - you make the point that England had "got rid of that idea (that 'might makes right') with courts and justice systems" . That's a magnanimous position (check the definition yourself). Yet Stet and I demonstrate how England has done exactly opposite of that, and you don't seem to acknowledge that point, but instead try to twist the positions of others.

It's obvious that you're in over your head in this discussion. You try to spin off on tangents that have no bearing.

The reality is that we are in no position to judge those that have come before us, but are obligated to learn as much as we can from them. I don't agree that it was anyone's 'right' to take land, and I'm not a big fan of Manifest Destiny, but they occurred both here and in every other corner of the world, including yours. The difference is that I'm not going to beat myself up over it or claim to better or more pious.

But if you really feel guilty, you can start atonement by donating all of the items that you have because of the sins of our forefathers, back to the insulted and injured. Start with your computer. (Because you wouldn't have it other than for the efforts of those evil American cowboys.)

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11-28-2005 08:17 PM  12 years agoPost 52
zoom boy

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Erm, my grandmother moved from norway to england after WW2, in WW2 russia would have taken the oportunity to anex northern europe if america hadnt gotten involved in the conflict and acted as a deterent to the russians taking more and more european territory, so assuming I was here or there or somewhere, I would probably be speaking russian.

The electronic computer was an english invention, so I wont thank the cowboys for that.
What was done then was right for the time they lived....
The time it happened in has no bearing on right and wrong, only wether they get away with it.

A magnanimous thing, is an act of giving and nobility, inventing the courts system is an act of invention and social evolution, and it caught on, we didnt give the idea away, other societys saw it and followed suit.

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11-28-2005 09:04 PM  12 years agoPost 53
divebomber

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Zoom boy,
my grandmother moved from norway to england after WW2, in WW2 russia would have taken the oportunity to anex northern europe if america hadnt gotten involved in the conflict and acted as a deterent to the russians taking more and more european territory
Still not getting the point. Had the intervention not occurred during WWII, the English would not be so. There would have been no Cold War because Germany would have probably kicked the USSR's butt had they not been fighting a two-front war. Assuming your ancestors had still made it to England under a Nazi pass, you'd be speaking German.

Again, not the point of the post, but a ridiculous tangent. The point was that the 'world would be a better place if everyone would just be friendly to each other' etc. Unfortunately, that pacifist nonsense is viewed as a weakness by the opportunists of the world. And no matter how much you want to hold their hands and sing Kum Ba Ya, it isn't going to change, as Minister Chamberlain found out.
The electronic computer was an english invention, so I wont thank the cowboys for that.
'Colossus' was an English invention. But I assume that you're not using a computer that takes up a building. No, you're using a personal computer; a purely American invention. From the operating system to the processing hardware, you do owe the American cowboys.

So do the magnanimous thing - donate your computer to the Indian tribe of your choice. Either that or go off on another unrelated tangent such as "the cowboys wouldn't have been able to defeat the Nazis" or "Al Gore invented the laptop".

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11-28-2005 09:19 PM  12 years agoPost 54
zoom boy

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Actually I agree with you, in certain situations you have to fight, but to be the agressor is wrong, defence is fine so therefore I am no pacifist.

To steal someones land displace them and then have "thanks giving" is a joke.

But I guess that would be rule #299 Whenever you exploit someone, it never hurts to thank them. That way, it's easier to exploit them the next time.
No, you're using a personal computer; a purely American invention. From the operating system to the processing hardware, you do owe the American cowboys.
What!?! since when, do you honestly think that every component in a PC was an american invention, if there is anyone to thank for that its the japanese, you will find that nearly all modern electronic components in PC's are based on technology created in japan, how they are used is up to companies like AMD Intel etc to make chips.
So do the magnanimous thing - donate your computer to the Indian tribe of your choice.
I didnt take it from them, it is not I who should make reparations to them.

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11-28-2005 10:34 PM  12 years agoPost 55
divebomber

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Zoom Boy,

The zaniness continues! It was almost an "Al Gore invented the PC" tangent.
To steal someones land displace them and then have "thanks giving" is a joke.
No, the true joke is your understanding of the circumstances around the first thanksgiving here in what is now known as the US. No one stole anyone's land. The Indians lived in harmony (for the most part) with the colonists and helped them survive. The thanksgiving feast was held with the Indians, not against them.
do you honestly think that every component in a PC was an american invention,
Name one that wasn't. And besides, it was the Commodore/Apple/IBM people that brought the PC to fruition, not the Japanese.

Sounds like you've been listening to the BBC too much.
I didnt take it from them, it is not I who should make reparations to them.
Really? Then who should? No one on this board or living on the planet today "took it from them". Yet there are plenty of people on the "reparations" band wagon. And from your posts on the subject, it appears you think that someone ought to repay the Indians also. But in true, 'modernistic socialist' form, it should be someone else.

I think your next zany tangent should be "but if we had left the Indians alone, they would not have air pollution, there would be no wars, and the PC would be made from completely natural granola".

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11-29-2005 05:01 AM  12 years agoPost 56
Stet

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zoom boy

There is a very good publication from your country called "The Economist" magazine. Try reading it once in a while so you can have something more substantive to observe. Maybey you can glean a more mature and informed view of world affairs, and who the bad guys really are.

keepin' it real

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11-29-2005 03:10 PM  12 years agoPost 57
Texas1

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I sure have missed the spirited debates, and still marvel at Drivebomber’s & Stet’s knowledge of world history.
I can add some history about the invention of the modern PC. The transistor was the first step to a modern computer in my humble opinion. It was an invention of Bell Lab. The project manager John Pierce called it a transistor because he believed the name to sound futuristic. Shockley, Brattain and Bardeen won a Noble Prize for physics in 1956 for there work on the transistor. The device was developed in 1948. The next step and most important to having a PC was the development of the integrated circuit. This invention was developed by Jack Kilby & Robert Noyce at about the same year of1958; Jack working as new hire engineer at Texas Instruments & Robert at Farchild in California. Both men received noble prizes for physics in 2000 for their invention. The next step was the microprocessor developed by Intel and introduced in 1971. The chip was more powerful than ENAC computer built in 1946, (the Colossus and the Manchester Mk I)British designs of about the same time frame. These machines required a building to house and no were near sitting on a desk in someone home. Thought the vacuum tube heat could have keep a house good and warm. These instrumental steps in electronic device physic are the real reason for PC. I can feel safe in saying the US is a major reason for the PC.

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11-29-2005 04:52 PM  12 years agoPost 58
Ed Moore

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Oh christ, it could turn into a "who invented what" thread/battle

They're really fun. Everyone always ends up concluding that most of the major inventions were invented by smart people, end of, and most big projects have smart people from all over the world involved. Can we pre-empt it just incase it happens here?

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11-29-2005 09:35 PM  12 years agoPost 59
divebomber

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Agreed, Ed. It's not about who invented what. That was a "wacky tangent" that had nothing to do with the current topic but simply continued to demonstrate the misunderstandings many around the world continue to labor under. Zoom Boy just made himself an example.

The point was that those who continue to rail about the injustices to the American Indian and how they were the poor little victims of the Evil Americans gloss over some truly important aspects of the entire issue. There was plenty of wrong to go around. These were two cultures that would doubfully have ever come to find common ground without decisive combat.

And the fact that we can, from the comfort of our chairs and 100+ years in the future, debate the issue in an instant across the world, is in no small measure, the result of the efforts of those victorious gringos. So, again, if one really has an issue with how the American Indian was treated, then quit whinning and do something about it. Take action and help to 'right the wrong'... donate away the fruits of that conquest. Since I assume Zoom Boy doesn't own property in the American West (which he could donate back), he could at least make amends with the Indians by disavowing the one thing that he owns that is a direct result of their plight.

( Now, let's be obvious about this )

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11-29-2005 11:13 PM  12 years agoPost 60
Ed Moore

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Novelty wigwam?

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HelicopterOff Topics › It was our soul right to kick Native Americans asses off their land.....
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