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HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › If the bearings are 40% larger, are they also 40% heavier?
11-29-2005 01:34 AM  12 years agoPost 21
E J Atchison

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Winsted, CT USA

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John,
I believe John H did the locktite thing on one and it worked.

Oh, watch out for the little devil. He can be the makings of heated topics.

I'll admit I'm not a great pilot, but I can hover with the best of them.

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11-29-2005 03:04 AM  12 years agoPost 22
rob10000

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Western Massachusettes

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actually, I think you'll want to use the green formulation for this job. Loctite #609 or #640.

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11-29-2005 03:06 AM  12 years agoPost 23
Al Magaloff

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The "problem" with making a mainshaft press fit into the bearings( the way it should be) is that most people won't get the pieces together without profanity. So a slip fit is the method that manufacturers settle for. Everyone can LockTite the bearings to the mainshaft, and be successful. As DB Caster states, the inner races need to turn with the mainshaft, or the bearings won't do well. Good grease is another major factor.

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11-29-2005 03:11 AM  12 years agoPost 24
flyingquisinart

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Detroit Area

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What about using just a little JB weld, like the addendum says to do on the bearing that slips on the pinion gear? Or is JB weld overkill where you can't break it loose to get the mainshaft out?

must have been a downdraft

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11-29-2005 03:15 AM  12 years agoPost 25
Al Magaloff

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You could break it loose, but for these applications I prefer LockTite.

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11-29-2005 03:16 AM  12 years agoPost 26
rob10000

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Western Massachusettes

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Sure, that might work. You might also be fighting it when/if you have to disassemble it. The proper compound works perfectly, is easy to apply, and can be disassembled relatively easily when the time comes.
If I was on a deserted island, and had nothing else, I might use JB Weld. But the proper supply is as close as your nearest hardware store, or automotive store.

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11-29-2005 03:54 AM  12 years agoPost 27
dbcaster

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Petaluma, Ca

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The Locktite sounds like a good solution. I thought the add was stating that by the bearings being 40% larger they did not have the problems that the Raptor has. I would not think of searching the Raptor forum for Tiger fixes.

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11-29-2005 11:18 AM  12 years agoPost 28
Al Magaloff

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I would not think of searching the Raptor forum for Tiger fixes.
I realize that, and that's why I mentioned it. One thing you'll find in this sport. We all have "issues" regardless of brand. On the bearing issue, in order to hold costs down , many of these machines use a bearing manufacturer( normally from China) that would not be ranked high on the quality scale. The cost of top quality bearings for the entire machine, could easily eclipse the cost of the heli kit . A Hirobo Eagle WC3 kit at $2800, or so, has a different customer, than say a Tiger or a Raptor. That being said, these inexpensive bearings can give very good service if installed with care. Care being: buy a Greaser. Grease every new bearing as it's installed, and re-grease every time you have something apart. I use Mobil 28 synthetic wheel bearing grease, the standard of the full scale aircraft industry. LockTite loose bearings to their corresponding shafts. Discard any bearing( mainshaft and tail ) where the shaft has been bent, blades broken, etc. The races in these bearings get dented when crashed, and if put back in service, will spall and self destruct in short order. These bearings are cheap enough. I keep a couple sets of the important bearings in my personal stock.

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11-29-2005 05:56 PM  12 years agoPost 29
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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I think this philosophy of cross brand advice is excellent!

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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11-29-2005 06:05 PM  12 years agoPost 30
darkfa8

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Brick, NJ - USA

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Al,

what method of assembly do you use when loc-titing bearings to a shaft?

i'm just wondering how bes to do this without getting loc-tite into the bearing itself.

- Dan Goldstein
Team Revolectrix

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11-30-2005 02:53 AM  12 years agoPost 31
Al Magaloff

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how best to do this without getting loc-tite into the bearing
A good question, and one that could use some discussion. First off, if you grease the bearing, the grease will shield the important parts somewhat. Rob posted above, about the use of LocTite 609. This is probably the best compound to use. 609 is low viscosity, and can be applied after the parts are assembled. Capillary action draws the LocTite into the space you are trying to fill. A very small amount is required. Resist the temptation to use " just a LITTLE bit more". This is one application where more is not better. A small quantity of 609 can be bought from http://www.McMaster.com or your favorite parts house. I pulled this from McMaster's site: 91458A23
Loctite 609 Retaining Compound,.02 oz(.5Ml), Green
In stock at $1.52 Each

Another tip to using all LocTite products, is to work clean. LocTite will not cure properly, if any grease or oil is present. Many of us use a spray solvent known as BrakeKleen, to degrease our parts before using LocTite. Not all BrakeKleen spray solvents are created equal. I prefer the one based on Perchloroethelene, or Perc, as it dries very dry without leaving a film behind. Permatex is a brand that's easy to come by here in the US. Perc is a known health hazard, and care should be exercised when using. You know, avoid skin contact, adequate ventilation, etc. In the case of the main shaft and bearing, I would spray the mainshaft, then shoot some BrakeKleen on a cotton swab, and degrease the inner race of the bearing.

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11-30-2005 03:46 AM  12 years agoPost 32
hootowl

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Now do you do both th eupper and lower bearings?... All of the main shaft bearings?

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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11-30-2005 09:16 AM  12 years agoPost 33
Al Magaloff

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I place a "ball" of LocTite on the end of a pin, then touch the mainshaft with the pin, just above the bearing. If you have an assembly where you cannot access the bearing/shaft interface, then simply wipe a thin coating of LocTite on the inner race of the bearing, before assembly.

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11-30-2005 03:44 PM  12 years agoPost 34
Heli88

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Clarkston, MI

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So, after reading the thread...If the bearing is 40% larger, are they 40% better? Does not sound like it to me.

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11-30-2005 03:46 PM  12 years agoPost 35
hootowl

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Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Maybe they are the same quality as the competition's but they are 40% larger. If they are of the same quality but larger, I would think they would last longer.

If there is a quality of bearing issue, the great thing is you still have LARGER bearings. Just replace them with better ones. Cost is low and you still have larger bearings!

Wolves don't lose sleep over the opinions of sheep

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11-30-2005 05:04 PM  12 years agoPost 36
E J Atchison

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Winsted, CT USA

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When I asked my wife what she thought about this bearing issue. She said bigger is always better. Let's just leave it a t that.

I'll admit I'm not a great pilot, but I can hover with the best of them.

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11-30-2005 05:42 PM  12 years agoPost 37
Al Magaloff

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...If the bearing is 40% larger, are they 40% better?
They have the potential to be better, yes. It's up to the end user to obtain that potential.

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11-30-2005 06:21 PM  12 years agoPost 38
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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Heli88,

Please don't misunderstand the issue of bearing size as we raise it in our advertisements comparing the Raptor to the Tiger. Frankly, I have been pursuaded by some folks that know more than I do that if I change my approach I may do better. Not with the facts, per se, because they are facts, but in "how" they're presented, i.e. more diplomatically. This will happen in the future.

Meanwhile, since its inception in the mid 90s, the Raptor 30/50 design was quickly adopted by the more forward thinking amongst us because it brought together into one design many good features. As a result, it supplanted the Concept and the Shuttle. Over the intervening years the product has matured and is thus, a well proven model (one which we studied quite a bit).

In the process we discerned there were issues. For example, one thing which affects sport fliers a little (but extreme performance pilots a lot) was the issue of "bearing walk". This led, in some cases, to pilots actually using epoxy to secure the bearings in the frames. Thunder Tiger themselves addressed this when the plastci inserts were replaced with aluminum inserts at the four points on each side of the main shaft bearings (along with an upgrade to machine thread screws).

Since we were starting with a clean piece of paper with the Tiger 50, we benefited from observing the problems Thunder Tiger had with the Raptor 50 "and" the solution TT elected to use. Thus, we decided to do two things to prevent ourselves from being boxed into the same corner (and thereby possibly having the same problems).

First, we immediately went to a larger bearing than that used in the Raptor 50 (which as you know means our main shaft bearings are 40% larger). The reason for this is obvious - the larger bearing accepts greater loads - and more improtantly, also spreads those loads into more of the plastic frame (thereby decreasing the loads, in pounds per square inch, or psi, in the frame. This is desirable because it lessens frame fatigue, i.e.the gradual looseneing of the seat where the bearing rides (which is the problem the Raptor suffers from).

Second, we decided to use machine screws for "all" the bolts which clamp the two frames halves together (instead of just the four at the main shaft bearings). This brings benefits in stabilization to the bearings which hold the clutch assembly as well as the tail pinion gear (similarly, these bearings are larger in the Tiger also). Furthermore, we decided to spend a little more by using Alen head machine screws instead of cheaper Phillips head screws coarse thread screws and palstic inserts (which was how the Concept was built - which was also designed by Mr. Taya). Folks, not only is a little more expensive, ubt a machine screw is far superior in clamping action, plus it does not strip out (like the plastic inserts can in a Raptor can). As for the head design, there's no real performance advantage, but an Allen head "is" more convenient for our customers.

Finally, the issue being discussed now in "this thread" has to do more with securing the shaft to the inner race of the bearings. And this issue comes up with ALL shaft-to-bearing interfaces . . . regardless of application, i.e. helicopters, engines, etc. Furthermore, as has been explained, mechanically the best practice is to press the inner race to the shaft (so it can never spin within the inner race). In practice, of course, this simply isn't practical - unless you want to carry a press around with you when you out to the field! So the next best thing is to use Locktite 609 instead. By the way, this information is just as applicable to the Raptor, and OS engine, as it is to the Tiger.

Finally, as for the subject header of the thread, yes, their being 40% larger means they're heavier as well (I presume that was rhetorical, i.e. asked tongue in cheek since it's obvious from inspection that this is the case), but frankly, this slight increase in weight is simply not an issue. Why not? Because we're talking about a few grams for each each bearing and the benefits of increased load bearing capacity of a larger bearing plus the factor of spreading the load better into the frame seats easily outweigh any overall weight issues.

My 2¢


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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11-30-2005 06:41 PM  12 years agoPost 39
AzHyper

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Peoria, Az.

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John - are you saying Loctite 609 will survive inside a glow engine when used between the rear bearing inner race and the crank itself? I ask because I have an OS with a "small" crank. Thanks!

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11-30-2005 06:53 PM  12 years agoPost 40
ProModeler

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Sanford, FL (Orlando area)

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Yes


John Beech
AMA # 47381
IRCHA #745

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HelicopterAudacity Models P6 Pantera - Tiger 50 › If the bearings are 40% larger, are they also 40% heavier?
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