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Other › JGF 450th on rex dpr graph
11-12-2005 04:43 PM  12 years agoPost 41
steph

rrKey Veteran

Hampshire England

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Make sure you connect the ESC to the DPR first, then the Battery to the DPR. The DPR seems to take a quiescent (zero) current reading during it's setup, and also I find that connecting the other way round often aborts the recording and you get a message saying something like 'mission aborted due to low voltage'.
I tried this both ways if i connect the dpr to the esc first i get the 3amp at the begining and the end if i connect the dpr to the bat first i then get 0 amp draw at the begining and the end

I Am surprised that you did not like the 450th mine is awsome the only problem i have is keeping the bat temps down @ 2680 rpm on the head i get 8 min of balistic flight
I tried the 40-6-18 on the 400dh and found the dh and gov mode did work but i was not happy with it so i used none gov mode works a treat
i am using the cc35 on mine @ the mo i will use the 40-6-18 when i try 4s setup

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-12-2005 06:40 PM  12 years agoPost 42
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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Steph,

Have you emailed BNB about your strange readings, because something looks wrong and I'd be suspect of any readings you get unless you can check current draw against a clip-on ammeter.

Maybe the 450TH runs well on a CC35 but not in governor mode on the 40-6-18. Anyway, I've just installed the Lehner and done a test hover in the lounge. If the weather permits I'll give that combo a test flight tomorrow.

Colin

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11-12-2005 07:59 PM  12 years agoPost 43
steph

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Hampshire England

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I am in contact with bnb i have sent them dpr graphs and all the info they need to analize the problem i am waiting for them to get back to me
Anyway because my li-po's are getting rather warm eg 45/50 deg c
i thought i would try a 11t pinion so out i went under the lamplight to give it a test fly to see how it handled with a lower headspeed
I think because it was dark the headspeed sounded ok i did not tach it i just wanted to run it up and see how the temps were on the li-po anyway here is a dpr graph of general flying could not do full climb outs just ducking and diveing around the lights
The average amp draw looks good and the full pitch amp draw looks ok ill give it a good flight tommorow blow the cobwebs out


The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-13-2005 03:14 PM  12 years agoPost 44
Vinnie FinnrrNovice - Rochester, NY 14624 - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Folks - the 450TH does not run hot. If your setup is running hot you need to check to see if you have Timing set to HIGH. Running a curve of 52% is very inefficient and chokes the motor. I recommend a curve of 85% or higher. If this is too high an RPM - reduce the teeth on your pinion.

Most issues I've heard of are heat in Align Motors - always this is due to the timing set to MID. It needs to be set to HIGH.

Jazz - controllers - see details on bottom of the 450TH. I have had some reports of these running outrunners hot. Some firmware causes outrunners to run hot and others not. I don't know what variable it is that is doing this, but it is a function of the ESC. Not sure how someone could compare the 450TH at 52% to a Mega on Gov mode - and with a controller that we specifically state has issues with governor mode. Up until many posts on this forum did we relent and say that the Jazz controller may work on outrunners.

Please do an equal and fair comparison and I'm sure you will be happy. If you purchased the motor from me - please contact me. I will gladly buy it back from you if you are unwilling to make the recommended changes.

Vinnie@JustGoFly.com

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11-13-2005 04:32 PM  12 years agoPost 45
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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Vinnie,

52% on a Jazz in governor mode equates to 76% on any other controller from my experiments (Jazz 0% (1150us) = 50% headspeed up to 100% (1850uS) = 100% headspeed.

This effective 76% seems to be a 'sweet spot' on the Jazz governor mode leaving enough headroom to accomodate falling battery voltage throughout the flight.

Both 450TH and Mega 16/15/3 were run on the same setup and 2400 headspeed, both in governor mode.

I ran the same test today with a Lehner on 10T and got the following:-

This is an improvement, but still needs a little tuning. It's also getting too cold out for me to enjoy flying in it.


No axe to grind here, and a lot of people like your motors especially on the CC35 ESC in non-governor mode. For my setup, others just seem to work better, especially as I've found the Jazz such a good controller, and I only want to use it in governor mode.

Colin

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11-13-2005 07:23 PM  12 years agoPost 46
steph

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Hampshire England

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Well Guys as I said I fitted the 11t pinion on the trex last night today I had three flight today although the head speed was lower the performance was still very good first I ran the tp 2100 li-po on it with very good performance and had a 9 min flight of full 10deg pith climbs and big big loops ect ect ect the dpr graph has the results I was still dismayed to find the tp 2100 had reached 45 deg c motor temp on the bell was only 12 deg c and the base of the motor about 15 deg c

The next test was the fp 1800 although the flight time was shorter I was surprised to find the performance change head speed was higher and total response of the cyclic was better and after 7 min of flight the li-po was only 35 deg c ambient temp was only 10 deg c it was cold and windy today the motor temps again 12 and 15 deg c
I am impress with the flightpower performance i still would like to see lower temps

And look at the max amp draw on both 21 amps max on the 1800 fp and only 20 amps on the tp the flight power voltage did not drop below 10 volts where as the tp dropped below 10 volts i must say this the tp li-po has had around 50 + flights so its not realy a fair comparison the tp li-po performed very well the fp li-po has only seen max of six charges

I was thinking of getting the flight power 2500 to try untill i saw the weight of it probaly to heavy for the Trex and areobatics

Tp 2100 li-po

Fp 1800 li-po

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-13-2005 07:40 PM  12 years agoPost 47
steph

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Hampshire England

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For those that may be interested here is my cc35 castle link setup on the 450th

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-13-2005 10:40 PM  12 years agoPost 48
Titan520

rrApprentice

Philippines

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Vinnie,

"Folks - the 450TH does not run hot. If your setup is running hot you need to check to see if you have Timing set to HIGH. Running a curve of 52% is very inefficient and chokes the motor. I recommend a curve of 85% or higher. If this is too high an RPM - reduce the teeth on your pinion."

Is this setup for CC35? Fixed or Gov? I will have the timing setup to "High", just need to know if it applies to "High Governor" mode.

Running the throttle curve at a lower headspeed makes the motor run inefficient? I did try running it at a higher headspeed though I don't have a tach, possibly at around 2200 form the sound and looks of it. I setup my Idle 2 for +10/-10 pitch (V) settings and the red light appears and the motor begins to bog. But I do agree that running the motor at a higher headspeed makes it run cooler.

I am currently running the ff:

CC35
450TH on 13T
GY401
HS56 (3)
HS50 (1)
TP2100 prolite and EPro 2200 V2

I am getting a 130F to 150F reading after an 8 minute flight on the endbell of the motor and 90-110F on the rotating body, Battery temp went as high as 125F.

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11-13-2005 11:59 PM  12 years agoPost 49
rerazor

rrElite Veteran

Mich.

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YES, running a brushless motor and esc at 100% is more efficent than at 70% etc...

Also, your throttle % setting in your TX means nothing when using the Gov. mode. You have to find your 100% setting by using your EPA/ATV adjustment.
Here is my 2 cents on how I set my gov mode using CC controllers.

Set your Throttle curve to 100% across.
Set your EPA/ATV to 50% for high and Low.
Remove main blades and tail blades
TX on, plug battery in.
Increase your Low EPA/ATV until the esc arms
Increase your High EPA/ATV until your Esc light comes on. This should be full throttle.
Now you can adjust your TC to 90% etc..

This is how I have found the CC esc to work yours might be differant.

Hope it helps.

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11-14-2005 02:16 AM  12 years agoPost 50
Mhw

rrApprentice

earth

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you may have seen this already, but here are my results with the 450th motor. Note. Im also using the Jazz with version "4" software. My motor never got hot, and works fine

here

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11-14-2005 04:08 AM  12 years agoPost 51
Vinnie Finn

rrNovice

Rochester, NY 14624

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Is this setup for CC35? Fixed or Gov? I will have the timing setup to "High", just need to know if it applies to "High Governor" mode.
I was refering to the motor timing for Align ESC - Fixed. I normally recommend "standard" on Castle Creations since this seems to work well. High will work as well. If I remember correctly the version I tested showed a slight drop in top end power on the High but may run more efficiently. Please run the tests yourself and post results, since it's been a long time since I've run this test and CC has been through many version changes.

I don't run Gov mode and am far from a heli expert. I don't think I can be trusted outside a hover and the guys I fly with all dive under their cars when I start hovering. ;-) Give me a few years and I'll be up there for longer than the repair time.

I am a repository of information though. You guys have been great about telling me what works and what doesn't and from that we form our recommendations. So keep the info coming and I do appreciate the honest reports here. They help others properly setup their heli's and that's what this forum is all about !

Vinnie

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11-14-2005 10:29 AM  12 years agoPost 52
steph

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Hampshire England

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I was still dismayed to find the tp 2100 had reached 45 deg c motor temp
Today i tried my second tp 2100 ran it for 7 min full flight only to find the performance was better than my flight yesterday if not equal to the fp 1800 and the temp was only 30 deg c
Looks like my TP 2100 li-po dated the 01/10/2005 is on its way out never mine its had over 50 flights

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-14-2005 10:39 AM  12 years agoPost 53
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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50 is probably not bad considering how much we abuse these packs. I suspect my FP2500 is already down on what it used to be because I noticed a voltage sag during the full power punchouts that seems worse than before.

Incidentally, storing fully charged LiPos at room temperature causes 20% degradation per year (according to one of the manufacturers). I'm thinking of buying one of those Peltier effect 'Beer fridges' and keeping my LiPos in that as I always recharge after flight so they are ready to go. Apparently degradation is only 2% in a year at 2 degrees C.

(My very considerate girlfriend said I could put them in a box in the food fridge!!!! )

Other LiPo's may vary

Colin

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11-14-2005 10:43 AM  12 years agoPost 54
AnnihilaT

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The Netherlands

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wow! 20% a year is ALOT! Dont believe ive read that before. Dont like reading it now either Bad news for someone buying 10s2p packs for an e-raptor for example.

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11-14-2005 11:53 AM  12 years agoPost 55
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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Here's the link (assuming RR doesn't mangle it) :-

http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

Colin

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11-14-2005 12:59 PM  12 years agoPost 56
steph

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Hampshire England

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Make sure you connect the ESC to the DPR first, then the Battery to the DPR. The DPR seems to take a quiescent (zero) current reading during it's setup, and also I find that connecting the other way round often aborts the recording and you get a message saying something like 'mission aborted due to low voltage'.
After long discussions with BNB through email this is what they said

We suggested connecting the ESC first, so that the small amount of quesient current that the ESC pulls (non motor current) would be compensated for. However, if connecting your battery first works for you, then that is fine. It appears to me that your (ESC or wiring or Motor) is "kicking back" about 2.75 amps, that the DPR sees as -2.75 amps. The DPR was designed assuming all currents would be uni-polar. The DPR also records the absolute value of all currents. So if you connect the ESC first, the DPR will see "zero" current when it powers-up and does its initial current calibration. But if your (ESC or wiring or Motor) causes reverse current at power-up and if you connect the ESC to the battery before the battery, then the DPR will falsely treat the -2.75 amps (for example) as the "zero" current.

The next firmware version will allow the user to select either uni-polar or bi-polar currents for recording. This would solve your issue, but recording bi-polar current will reduce your recorded current resolution.
We have had very few similiar issues. You might check into weather or not your ESC has any programing options that might prevent reverse current flow?

Please remember, you can return your DPR for refund if your not completly satisfied. See our web site.

P.S. I don't know when new firmware will be available. Also, it will require a return to BNB Products for upgrade.

So basically there is no problem with the DPR unit it stillrecords the values as it should read thats the way i read it

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-14-2005 01:32 PM  12 years agoPost 57
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

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Where are some good places to purchase a 450TH? The ones that I checked were out of stock.


.

... BTS

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11-14-2005 02:45 PM  12 years agoPost 58
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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Steph,

So they're really just saying that your ESC/Motor setup is drawing or 'kicking back' 2.75 amps during initial power-up for a period that exceeds the DPR PIC (uProc) reset time? Seems strange but possible (motor beep sequence ending at just the wong time??).

I don't think the bit about recording bi-polar currents would make any difference - you'd just end up with the opposite polarity offset.

Don't know their circuit, even less their microcode, but I am using the same current transducer to build a BIG constant current load for battery testing (just one of a million other projects I've got going in almost zero spare time). At zero current, the transducer gives Vcc/2 volts where Vcc is the supply voltage to the chip. Current passing in one direction through the sensor causes this voltage to increase by 40mV per Amp, the other direction will decrease it by 40mV per Amp. The PIC uProc just logs these values through an A to D converter. None of which is really relevant but might give you some idea how the DPR must work.

Is there any way you can try my suggestion of a 1 ohm resistive load instead of Esc/motor ( or using both filaments of a 12V car headlamp bulbs in parallel would probably be about right assuming a 3S battery)? That would eliminate the ESC/Motor and let you check the DPR directly against a DVM.

EDITED: Just checked out a 50W/40W 12v headlamp bulb and got about 7 amps running bothh filaments in parallel. Don't run for too long if you solder the wires directly to the bulb base as the solder melts through the heat generated (not this test but many years ago) and you definitely don't want stray wires shorting out!

Connect battery to DPR first, wait for green light, then connect headlamp load. take readings at 30 sec inrevals (say) and compare against what the DPR logged. Not ideal, but without a variable constant current load it's the best you can do.

Colin

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11-14-2005 06:57 PM  12 years agoPost 59
steph

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Hampshire England

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Hi cdyckes

Thanks for your help on this i think the dpr is reading ok i took some tests as you said and the reading on the dpr unit was the same as the dvm i used a 10w 7.5 ohms the current draw on it was 1.54 i did the test @ 15 sec intervals

The world is round you can run but you will always end up where you started from

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11-14-2005 09:07 PM  12 years agoPost 60
cdyckes

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Nr. Yeovil, Somerset - UK

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Steph

That's good. The only question now is whether you're getting an accurate in-flight reading, or one that's 'off' by 2.75 amps. Difficult to tell without trying another controller or motor combo (know anyone else into electrics?)

Colin

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