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HelicopterMiniature Aircraft Whiplash & Fury 55 › Are white tail gears out yet and how much?
05-09-2005 02:28 AM  12 years agoPost 21
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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I asked

By the way, Henry C did take out a set of gray gears at Huntsville, but admitted the gear mesh was too loose and he had not reset the mesh on it after initial installation. I was unaware of it since I didn't make Huntsville as we had a heli event in Tallahassee the weekend before and my "honeydo" list got a little long to leave town.
Sorry, didn't mean to mislead anyone.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-09-2005 12:26 PM  12 years agoPost 22
heliplus

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Santa Fe, N.M

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JKL

No, I will stick with the Metal Tailgearbox....I just don't understand their reluctance to just making the machine gears and be done with it.....Offer both or at least as an option the machined Gears. This has been going on now for over a year. First the Black Gears now the Grey Gears... Years ago they stopped using molded gears up front because of the out of round situation...and the airpockets NOTHING HAS CHANGED . As for the Hirobo Machined Gears, I will stick to the metal ones unless MA discontinues them ( I hope not )I don't like to mix and match.

The part that really amazes me is all this crap about Gear Mesh...I have looked at a few at my field and haven't seen one that really turns true. There are high spots and low spots because of this out of round situation... As I stated before.... if you set the mesh to the loose side, it is going to bind on the tight side..so u have to strike a happy medium.
If you look closely at the valley between the the teeth in those pics, it appears there was a pocket under the tooth.

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05-09-2005 01:14 PM  12 years agoPost 23
Davo

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London, UK

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From MA website:
The new transmission includes permanently lubricated, molded transmission gears. These require no adjustment, are easily installed and are they ever tough.........
Seems pretty clear to me that MA think adjustment isn't necessary.

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05-09-2005 01:22 PM  12 years agoPost 24
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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HUH?

I was unaware that the molded black main gears were discontinued because they were out of round and had airpockets. I heard it was because the molds had been used for so long they were wearing out and MA wanted a new style driven autorotation hub that require a larger ID than was available on the older molded gears and we also wanted a crown gear that we could replace separately from the main gear. That's what I heard anyway.
As you probably know, these TR gears are not a catalog stock item, the are purpose manufactured for MA. I know MA experimented with catalog gears but found them to be unsuitable so went with custom gears. The gray gears are made in the same molds as the black ones were, but the manufacturing process was changed to eliminate the molding problems of the black gears. Even on the broken gray gears you cannot see voids like on many of the old black gears. Machined gears would be fine, I'm sure they would work, but that would require a completely new set up charge to manufacture, which is not inexpensive.
I have an idea. Why don't you go into the machined gear business and make gears for all the open TR gearbox model companies. Since they are a superior product and cost is not a factor, you could clean up. You could take out an ad here on RR and make a small fortune.
Do you know how to make a small fortune in the hobby business? Start with a large fortune.

Seriously, cost is a factor so if we could find machined gears already in production that we could use, I'm sure that would be an option. If you find any, let me know.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-09-2005 03:28 PM  12 years agoPost 25
heliplus

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Santa Fe, N.M

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Gordie

"I was unaware that the molded black main gears were discontinued because they were out of round"
I never said they were discontinued I did say I hope they don't discontinue the metal gears...I wasn't around myself years ago however I heard from guys that were that many of the Main gears were out of round and they would ask MA to hand pick some for them when they ordered them.

"Since they are a superior product and cost is not a factor"

Yes machined gears are more expensive I'm sure...but what is that worth if they may save an incident. What about MA's reputation????
though all of this???
Remember what MA said about the Black Gears they were the end all!!!!! WRONG!!!! and now problems with the grey ones.

"Machined gears would be fine, I'm sure they would work, but that would require a completely new set up charge to manufacture, which is not inexpensive. "

The Fury is not a inexpensive helicopter. They tried to use the best technical designs. ( which is why this guy bought one ) but, I feel they have failed in the Tailgearbox. You can dance around this all you want. I think MA did this soley to save $$$$ not because the molded gears were equal to or better then machined...I know I would rather pay a little more for the best part available and I think everyone else would too. as far as Tail Gear Mesh the best tail gear mesh is obtained when you can move both gears to a middle point not just one. ( You have been around long enough and I'm sure know this )

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05-09-2005 03:44 PM  12 years agoPost 26
D.C.heli

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Toronto, Canada

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I personally witnessed David strip these teeth out the other day. Just for clarity he was performing fast collective pumping during a piro flipping session (sorry Dave cats out the bag on your new maneuver). David is an amazing pilot and could put some that are referred to on here to shame in terms of complexity, difficulty, smoothness, and precision for his flying. He is also very anal in terms of his build and would not have flown if the mesh was assumed to be out. He had not adjusted the mesh from stock seating position as far as I know, and should not have to.

After all that was Tim's point to bringing out the open box. When Tim debuted the open box at IRCHA he said that’s the point of it, a factory set mesh that is not adjustable (can't screw it up). I can only imagine the flack he received over the mesh setting issues with the metal gears from hack builders that don't have a clue how to do it properly, in turn prematurely wearing or stripping altogether, then blaming the gears and Tim. These original boxes were almost bulletproof if set and re-set, and maintained properly.

Bottom line David's open box was implemented as it was intended to. He should not have had to re-adjust the mesh, although as stated earlier the benefit is obvious as the molded units true themselves. Pumping piro flips is probably one of the more demanding maneuvers on the tail gears, and the grey’s didn't hold up. Could there be other factors involved? Of course, but I'm just posting to state some facts so the discussion can stay true and relevant.

Riddle me this then Batman, if the gears are to be re-meshed, why are no shims included for doing so?( I have not purchased the open box yet as I await all these issues to be resolved first, so I'm assuming here, but am pretty sure no shims are included nor instructions stating to do so)

Darren

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05-09-2005 05:22 PM  12 years agoPost 27
RotorKelly

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I have been watching this discussion for a while and I do have a question to Miniature Aircraft. With all these Black/Gray Gear problems (see above) If I buy a box that was put together at Miniature Aircraft, and I have a crash do to tail rotor gears malfunction that destroys more parts than just a tail gears, will Miniature reimburse me for the destroyed parts?, try to sell me parts for supposedly reduced price?, or just replace the Tail Gears?. I direct this question to Miniature Aircraft, please answer it on this forum so all of us can be aware of your policies and business practices.
P.S.
I too would like to see machined gears.

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05-09-2005 05:28 PM  12 years agoPost 28
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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UH!

No shims are included because you slide the input shaft itself and lock it down in the desired location, similar to what we did to the input shaft of the metal TR box.
Guys, I have no idea what the deal is with the new gray gears. All I know is what I have seen. I know that when the new gears are installed they do wear in and the lash begins to get excessive. If you reset the lash by sliding the input shaft to a tight but smooth clearance, the TR gets very quiet. It works very well for me.
Understand, I have no financial interest in Miniature Aircraft, they are wholely family owned. I buy my stuff just like everyone else and assemble to my own spec which is considerably higher than most models I've seen and test flown lately. I want it to work, work well, and work every time. So far this TR has worked for me. Tomorrow it may fail, who knows.
I am NOT a heavy duty 3Der even though I can do most of the stuff I've seen others do but I don't load a model like many guys I have seen. My stuff stays together pretty much until I hit the ground so parts failures for stock parts is pretty rare for me. I did readjust one of my two open boxes for lash recently and noticed the noise reduction so I commented on that here. I have no earthly idea if the gray gears are going to be problematic or not. I have no idea of their rate of failure. I am like everyone else in that I want the stuff to work and be bullet proof and I know that is what Tim is designing for, but every time he makes something better, guys invent new stuff that is even more radical and takes stress to a new level. Imagine a state of the art model of the late 80s trying to perform the stuff we do routinely now. Models (all brands) are so much better now as far as durabilty and strength compared to then.
I also commented that machined gears would work but would be comparatively expensive. I cannot comment on how expensive is too expensive because I have no idea. I know cost is always a factor in business but I have no clue how big a factor in this case. The Fury, while not inexpensive, is NOT an expensive helicopter by todays standards. Check out the price of an Eagle 3 or Caliber 90. What MA is working for is a kick-butt model that is quality and affordable. I think most guys would say that is pretty much true, hope so anyway.
I am not accusing anyone of trying to get something for nothing by claiming failure nor I am not accusing anyone of poor building. I was trying to point out things I was told. Do with that what you will.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-09-2005 05:38 PM  12 years agoPost 29
rappyfly

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Toronto, ONT

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Oh no! My new moves......

Thanks DC for clear out..

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05-09-2005 06:35 PM  12 years agoPost 30
mrNoodles

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Borlänge, Sweden

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If I buy a box that was put together at Miniature Aircraft, and I have a crash do to tail rotor gears malfunction that destroys more parts than just a tail gears, will Miniature reimburse me for the destroyed parts?
Interesting question.

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05-09-2005 07:11 PM  12 years agoPost 31
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Problem

I hate to even respond to this but, I do understand the question. If you are the manufacturer or even the retailer, how do you know if the part failed and caused the crash or if the crash caused the part to fail? I am reasonably sure that noone here would ever claim a part failure to keep from buying $300 worth of replacement parts from a bad crash, but there are some people in the world who would. See the dilemma?
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-09-2005 07:33 PM  12 years agoPost 32
mrNoodles

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Borlänge, Sweden

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Sure there´s risks..

But Im sure the manufacturer, MA in this case, can trust the people that bought their helicopters.

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05-09-2005 08:03 PM  12 years agoPost 33
Hawk4flyer

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Deland,Florida

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Here’s a thought on the line of the Manufacturer replacing damaged parts due to a mechanical failure.

(This is just something that crossed my mind, I, in no way am pointing this at anyone)

Henry C just recently had a set of gears fail in flight. He managed to land the heli without crashing.

Lets say that I had the same problem, only I did crash.

Is it the manufacturer who should pay for my inability to land safely?
Or is it the manufacturer who is responsible for my lack of skill?

Just a thought.

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05-09-2005 08:44 PM  12 years agoPost 34
HeliChris

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Lancaster, New York

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Hawk4flyer
Your answer leads to another question, what if helicopter with failed tail gears hits and hurts someone?. At this point Miniature is aware of the problem, they know what it takes to fix it. Who is at fault then?.
Just a thought.

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05-10-2005 01:07 AM  12 years agoPost 35
RotorKelly

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GM1
Solution
In case Miniature Aircraft does not trust their customers with their claims against faulty gears. The simple solution for MA will be to start a buy back program and simply purchase back all of the open gearboxes (for full retail price) or replace them for free with a gearboxes that work. This will eliminate all of the bead apples, (send it back, and you will get your money or you will get a new gearbox). Other companies do this from time to time, why can’t they do it?

I still think that the machined gears will fix the problem, and they will be much cheaper then the buy back program or parts replacement program!!!!

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05-10-2005 01:28 AM  12 years agoPost 36
airdodger

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Johnston USA

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RotorKelly Whatever they do the cost will be passed on to us, (the consumer) in the end. I also don't think Min Air should be liable for your competence or lack of it in flying heli's, or your bad judgement in flying so low you could not recover with just being able to do an auto. As this is your first post, I can only assume you have an axe to grind. Do you even own an X-cell with an open gear box? Chris

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05-10-2005 01:49 AM  12 years agoPost 37
RotorKelly

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I agree with you 100% regarding the cost being passed on to the customers. Bigger picture is a credibility of the company, if after all of this, there is any left.

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05-10-2005 02:02 AM  12 years agoPost 38
airdodger

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Johnston USA

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Min Air is addressing the problem in the manner they see fit, I think their credibility will be fine as long as they are trying. The only person who makes no errors is the person who does nothing at all, and that itself is an error. Personally, I am more concerned about the gas prices costing me a new gear box every few weeks. Chris

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05-10-2005 02:38 AM  12 years agoPost 39
sgt1959

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Easley SC

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I talked to H C also he did notice that my gear mesh was off and after I adjusted them the bird flew fine at least you can adjust them remember the white gears on the raptor a few yeas back they also had a problem stripping did they go to machined gears no and people are still using there upgraded plastic gears but you dont hear anyone complaining about thunder tigers tail gears point is gears do wear and you need to keep an eye on them and adjust accordingly

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05-10-2005 04:15 AM  12 years agoPost 40
rappyfly

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Toronto, ONT

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Thanks everyone.....

I know, I know... I did not respect the heli's ability, didnt check, check and check b4 every flight. my fault.

Anyway, guarantee more follow up coming.

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HelicopterMiniature Aircraft Whiplash & Fury 55 › Are white tail gears out yet and how much?
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