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HelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › mCCPM vs eCCPM for F3C
05-07-2005 10:24 PM  12 years agoPost 61
vtolnut

rrNovice

USA

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ACE DS1211s which are at 149in/oz with .12 sec transit time and quite frankly with heavy blades at 180-200G
Heavy Blades 180-200 G ... most serious non-3D Contest flyers will snicker at you assertion that 200G is heavy for a 90 side machine. Besides the tip weight and chordwise CG have a much bigger play in the loads than you believe. This is not helo worship or silly science it is real. Also have you tried running 2100-2200 rpm rotor speeds and entry speeds in excess of 120 mph in your tests? It would be nice if everything was as simple as a bench test would suggest but it is not. I fly this way and I can tell you that everything about the precision and power of the control system becomes you friend in a hurry. Maybe I am being an A## but what does collective pumping have to do with F3C flying which is what this tread is about correct?

Here is a new thought. Servo torque and transit speed per unit time is also tied to frequency. If you simple sweep the servo from stop to stop at a cycle speed that is more than the time for it to transit thur x degrees, it will behave much differently at 25 or 50 times that frequency. "So what" you may ask?.

The swashplate is a cam. It takes energy for it to tilt the flybar when it is not perpendicular to the mainshaft in the most machines (a notable exception may be the austrailian Rc Rotortech Head and some small electric machines). Feedback forces from the blade do in fact get directly to the swashplate in all systems that have direct(sometimes called bell) and indirect(flybar) mixing. As you raise the inertia in the feathering axis, the magnitude of this force will increase. You also need to take into account the torque generated by displacing the center of mass of the blade in the feathering axis away from the plane of rotation (oh so Wayne is not smoking a Cr@@ck pipe when he mentions neutral or trailing edge heavy blades). The capability of as ervo that appears to be unstoppable staticly may in fact be heavily compromised at high frequency. An if you get a load that exceeds the pulse frequency of the motor circuit and the forces get high enough things get real interesting.

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence to things bending servos stalling out there if you closely watch some of the 3D big guns pressing their machines to the limit. I have personally witness serious tracking issues develop in machines that would look to be impossible for this to occur on the bench. Since the machine is so close in you can see these things realatively easily. You now maybe I am strange but this stuff jumps out at me as much as seeing a machine survive a near death experience.

I have to run for now but I thought some of these points hade been missed.

I may have more on this later.

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05-07-2005 10:32 PM  12 years agoPost 62
KC

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WA

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alexander,

give this man a break, he has pretty much put the stamp on many of the things we use!!!

sit back, relax and enjoy reading about his experiences, he's responsible for much of your expertise.

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05-08-2005 05:04 AM  12 years agoPost 63
Wayne Mann

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United States of America

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Nighttrain. I have only spent a small amount of time playing with a Eagle 3. I'm not sure that it was worth the expense given the very small amount of interaction in the elevator system of the previous Eagles. It is some very nice work though.


Wayne Mann

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05-08-2005 05:51 AM  12 years agoPost 64
Kwan

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Los Angeles

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This is a great thread...very enlightening with trials and tribulations into F3C competition...

I would like to refer fellow RR memebers back to this old thread regarding servo tests that were conducted a few years back...

http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...?highlight=volz

I am wondering, does anyone verify any manufacturer's advertised servo specifications? If the big automobile manufacturers can fudge their numbers with the world watching, why not the lesser scrutinized RC electronics manufacturers?

Kwan

[color=blue][u][b]Couch potato have rights too![/b][/u][/color]

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05-08-2005 07:06 AM  12 years agoPost 65
KC

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WA

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stephen, I really want to say something to you but its not worth it

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05-08-2005 12:58 PM  12 years agoPost 66
nighttrain

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Louisville KY

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Wayne, Thanks!!! Maybe we can sit down and drink about it sometime. It's great to hear you guys talk about things we never really thought of before. Thanks. Doug

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05-08-2005 06:04 PM  12 years agoPost 67
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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Doug,

The mechanism that the E3 uses is surely the cat's ass. Here's the thing, though. The Pro's all have a PIT>ELE interaction at extremes of collective throw. It's more present at high pitch angles. That interaction is linear, though. All it takes to get rid of it a quick pmixer, a linear one no less, and it's gone. For the purest engineer, such a solution to a problem is not acceptable. But to avoid having a model that is about the most expensive that money can buy and crash, sometimes you've got to compromise a little.

Ben Minor

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05-08-2005 10:59 PM  12 years agoPost 68
nighttrain

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Louisville KY

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Dr Ben

You're right. God has dropped an E3 right in my lap off Ebay, or I would never know! VPUS allows the pitch arm pivot to rock (for those who haven't seen it). It essentially turns the radial motion of pitch to linear motion that the servo's ride in a track w/o being effected. Cats meow! Except now I have less and less to blame.......... Doug

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05-09-2005 05:05 AM  12 years agoPost 69
Dr.Ben

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Richmond, VA, USA

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One of the main reasons that tray was necessary is because Hirobo chose to have the ele bellcrank ride on a ball bearing assembly mounted on the mainshaft. In a Pro, the ele bellcrank shifts to and fro a small amount as the would be parallelogram rocks up and down with collective. Since that BB assembly can't move in such fashion, that tray up front has to.

Ben Minor

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05-09-2005 01:31 PM  12 years agoPost 70
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Servos

Something that has been mentioned here and is obvious, the better the servos we have available and the better the communication to the servos, the better the model will behave in an eCCPM environment. The jury is still out on whether the new generation servos will wear evenly so we do not have to "match" servos for speed and travel. It sounds like Wayne thinks we may be at that point. I have ordered servos for testing in an eCCPM model but am not selling my mCCPM stuff yet.

Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-09-2005 07:17 PM  12 years agoPost 71
classic

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All over the place!

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Gordie or Wayne,
May I ask, have you had the chance to try the "volz" brand servos made in Germany?
I have heard that a lot of precision plane guys seem to like them, and didn't know if eather of you have had a chance to use them. {Oviously, if you are a sponsored pilot than you wouldn't have tried them, but I don't know if you are sponsored or not}

By the way, thanks for the great info on the 14,
Very enlightning thread!
I was thinking of holding off on getting one due to some negitive views on other posts, but your imputs have proven to be very informative!
Thanks

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05-09-2005 07:21 PM  12 years agoPost 72
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Volz

I have flown Volz servos in my sailplanes (they were installed when I bought it) and they have been very good but I have no experience with them in helicopters at all.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-10-2005 12:00 PM  12 years agoPost 73
Henrik Engert

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Cedar Park, TX

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Being a new "F3C" pilot (Sport class pilot going for F3C next season), it makes me nervous hearing all this talk about delta this and delta that. It sounds so complicated.

I fly a Hirobo Freya and I really hope it will last me into F3C. What kind of delta does the Freya have?

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05-10-2005 12:10 PM  12 years agoPost 74
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Dude

Don't sweat the delta. To be honest, I flew contests for 10 years and couldn't tell the difference. After I had spent years with the same type model and knew it extremely well, I started to feel just a little, and I emphasize a little, difference in how the model flew when I changed dampers or delta. But first you have to KNOW the model you have so go out and fly the pants off it and learn it as it is right now so you'll feel the difference when you change something.
The Freya will be a VERY competitive model for you. I have flown a couple and they do very well. I also got a chance to fly one of the new Eagle 3s and was very impressed with it also. Just get out there and practice, learn everything about the model as it is and work on getting the radio set up as good as you can and trimming the model to help you progress. Stick with it and above all fly a lot.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-10-2005 12:56 PM  12 years agoPost 75
Henrik Engert

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Cedar Park, TX

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Thanks.

Yeah, it is a new model for me this year. I have put around 30 liters of fuel through it already and it is an awesome machine. It tracks really well through the air, even in heavy wind. Still some small problems in hover (heavy wind) where I have to work my a** off to keep it still

We had our first competition in Sweden last weekend with a really good turnout. It was nice to see some of the F3C pilots perform the A program (No B program this time...not enough time). I myself keep struggling with the Sport program, but I am totally into competition right now. I got my inspiration from Wendell Adkins when I lived in the US

When are you guys going to start practice the new F3C program taking effect 2006? Looks like a nice program.

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05-10-2005 07:21 PM  12 years agoPost 76
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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New schedules

We will fly the US Nationals with the current schedules but will switch to the new schedules immediately afterward, except the guys on the world team, who I assume will wait until after the World Champs.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-10-2005 08:06 PM  12 years agoPost 77
Gearhead

rrMaster

Vt

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(without me reading the whole thread),,, do you F3C guys use hard rotor head dampeners ??,

I put them on my Century 50 and I love them, they make my heli track so nice, and fly so clean on the cyclic stick, I say clean because I don't have to finesse the cyclic stick as much to get it to do want I want it do, even in a hover or flying slow maneuvers it flies so much nicer with the hard dampeners...


Jim

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05-11-2005 01:41 AM  12 years agoPost 78
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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Adjustment

You are discovering how adjustable these models actually are. You can change the feel and response of the model by changing damping, flybar ratio, flybar length, delta, fin size and location, blades and paddles. It's really fun to get the model adjusted to EXACTLY how you want it to feel.
This discussion on CCPM is hopefully answering some of the questions on how to go about setting up some of these variables.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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05-11-2005 01:45 PM  12 years agoPost 79
bald eagle

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detroit michigan

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hi nighttrain last year when i put together my e3 i installed some of the links wrong and when i was in florida gordie had cluded me in on some set up tips and wayne had posted syncinf the swash to flybar i went back and corrected my set up on both of my models and boy it was way off.
i set mine up buy eye instead of buy pitch guage and i will tell you that will never happen again but in the process of setting up my machines
i put a swashplate level guage on it and gave full collective up and down and was pulling ale to the right all last year i was having a problem keeping it in one spot so i was trying to work it out with my hands and not my machine i went back to the book and double checked the set up and found my mistake in the links.

i fly thumbs instead of fingers and have tried to change it like quitting smoking but i now have no interaction in a collective movement and it flys great thanks to gordie and wayne for the help and the posting here on runryder

please keep giving us more

thanks jeff mcphail

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05-12-2005 04:05 AM  12 years agoPost 80
GM1

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Tallahassee, Florida US

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thumbs

Jeff,
I went throough the same thing. Keep working at it and all of a sudden it starts to feel OK and the next thing you know it's natural. I lfew with my thumbs for 20 years and converted to fingers 15 years ago. Now I fly everything that way.
Gordie

On a dog sled team, if you're not the lead dog, the view never changes.

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HelicopterAerobatic FAI F3C F3N Contest › mCCPM vs eCCPM for F3C
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