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HelicopterBeginners Corner › TT50 engine Trouble
05-03-2005 05:23 PM  12 years agoPost 1
Leehollingworth

rrNovice

Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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cant seem to get my engine to fire and its never been started before and is brand new where should i be looking for fault checking? don't seem to see anything wrong, the engine is in a new raptor 50v2 so it has a header tank and i also put on a fuel filter.......

please help and thanx for taking time out for me

Lee

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05-03-2005 05:40 PM  12 years agoPost 2
MAH

rrApprentice

Galesburg, Il.

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First thing to check is your glo plug. Make sure
its good and your glo battery is charged up.

If that checks out then its a fuel issue. If you have
a hot glo plug and some fuel in the motor its going
to at least pop or sputter.

I would guess your idle needle is probably not set correctly.
Is there raw fuel coming out the muffler? If so you are set too
rich. Nothing coming out at all? Maybe too lean.

Maybe you just need to prime it a bit. With your glo battery OFF
open the throttle wide open. Close off the muffler outlet with
a finger and turn the motor over a bit with your starter. That should
force some fuel into the motor. REMEMBER TO CLOSE THE
THROTTLE TO IDLE BEFORE TRYING TO START IT.

Try 4 turns out on both needles. That should be quite rich.
Remember this is a ringed motor so the first couple of tanks
should be slobbering rich. And the idle needle is predominate
until about 60% throttle. Keep it very rich for a while until it breaks in.
Ringed motors take a while to break in.

Keep at it. It will run. If you have fuel, air and a hot plug
it will run.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

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05-03-2005 07:25 PM  12 years agoPost 3
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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tryed that but still no joy, im new to the hobbie so is there anything else that i could be missing?

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05-03-2005 07:46 PM  12 years agoPost 4
MAH

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Galesburg, Il.

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Hmm...

Well look at the fuel line near the carb. Is fuel being drawn into the engine?
You should be able to see fuel flowing in the line.

If fuel is flowing and you are cranking it over and its
not even firing then you should start having some raw
fuel show up in the muffler output. That fuel has to go
somewhere.

Try this. Remove the high speed (main) needle valve.
Disconnect the pressure line from the muffler and blow
into the vent line to the main tank. This will pressurize
the tank and force fuel into the carb which should then squirt
out the hole where the needle valve was. This is also a good
way to clear out any crud that may be in there. If you arent
getting any flow then investigate your plumbing.

This is a brand new motor? Did you check that the back plate
and head were on tight and that the carb was not loose?

Perhaps you need to make a linkage adjustment on your throttle.
Maybe its not opening enough at idle?

Running out of ideas here...hard to diagnose problems remotely.
You may have to look up a local experienced pilot. You probably
should have someone verify your setup and trim out the machine
for you anyway.

Good luck...

Mike Hammer
mhammer@grics.net

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05-03-2005 07:57 PM  12 years agoPost 5
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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does it matter if the header tank is full or not?
there is a small air pocket at the top of the header will that affect it?

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05-03-2005 08:02 PM  12 years agoPost 6
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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by 4 turns i take it that you mean full rotations through 360 degrees?

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05-03-2005 10:15 PM  12 years agoPost 7
MAH

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Galesburg, Il.

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there is a small air pocket at the top of the header will that affect it?
Thats the job of a header tank. Its meant to be a bubble trap.
But there really shouldnt be very much air. You should be able
to get all the air bubbles out when you fill it.

Note that when you are fueling you should be filling up
the header tank and the overflow from the header
fills the main tank.
by 4 turns i take it that you mean full rotations through 360 degrees?
Yes. Close the carb fully and turn in the needle valve all
the way. Then turn it out 4 full turns. Do the same with
the idle needle. Just turn them in until you feel resistance.
Dont force it.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

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05-03-2005 10:27 PM  12 years agoPost 8
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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cheers ill try that tomorrow..

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05-04-2005 06:10 AM  12 years agoPost 9
MJWS

rrKey Veteran

Airdrie, AB - Canada

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The good news is these are simple little engines and don't really need much to fire.

Mike's done a good job of walking you through the basics. It's pretty easy to make sure you have heat. Your glowplug should be glowing bright red on the ignitor. If you are using a power panel... the voltage can drop dramatically when you are cranking the engine with your starter. Double check it.

So a fresh plug and make sure everything is charged well should take care of the first portion. Glow.

Second is fuel. As Mike said, you should be able to blow fuel straight out the removed needle if things are plumbed correctly. Next with the needle back in and opened 4 full turns from closed. Take a clean piece of fuel tubing connect it to the carb and blow. You need to be able to feel the air blowing through the needle. If you can't blow air through the tube... open the low speed needle until you can. If air won't flow, fuel won't flow.

Next thing we're gonna try is choking and priming the hell out of it. With the ignitor off. Essentially we want the fuel pouring out everywhere. Block the muffler, Open the throttle and crank. The fuel should start spraying out your carb and coming out the muffler. You should be able to see it flowing in the tubing and making a mess.

At this point we KNOW we have fuel. We know we have heat. We just need to get them combined. So pull the glow plug and blow out your cylinder. Just crank it with the plug out. It should spray fuel everywhere if you've done the priming and choking right. Crank if for a few seconds to clean it out. It'll leave a nice priming charge behind.

Now get the plug back in and put your ignitor on. Give it a touch of throttle because your linkage may have the throttle closed too far. You can hear the difference between open and closed easily while you are cranking. It should at least fire.

If it still doesn't fire clip the fuel line and keep cranking it ... this will move us from our nice rich choked condition too leaner as the fuel gets blown out and not replaced. At some point it will hit the right mixture and run and fire. If only briefly.

It's pretty easy to go from a REALLY rich mixture to the right mixture by oversupplying fuel, then cutting the supply until it starts. With a difficult motor sometimes you have no choice but to sneak up on it slowly till it 'catches'. It can take a while if you don't know what you're doing, but you'll get it eventually... just go slowly and systematic and make sure you have the basics covered. Good Fuel. Good Heat.

Good Luck,

Mike

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05-04-2005 11:32 AM  12 years agoPost 10
airdodger

rrElite Veteran

Johnston USA

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Are you turning the engine in the correct direction? Chris

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05-04-2005 01:12 PM  12 years agoPost 11
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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as far as i know i am it will only go one way cos there is no tension on the starting shaft the other way?

im just going to try what mike said.

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05-04-2005 01:43 PM  12 years agoPost 12
2LTime

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Walworth,NY

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Also make sure there is nothing blocking the carb intake hole. Sometimes they come witha rubber boot on them. If this is still on it doesn't matter if it gets fuel. No Air, No start.

Jeff

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05-04-2005 02:07 PM  12 years agoPost 13
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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ok got it started and it ran fine, i had to bypass the header tank (i dont think that enough was going throught the header but cant figure out why?). i left it just above idol for a few minutes with thew main blades off and the exhaust got hot quite quick which is not what i expected, both needles where open 4 turns not a deal of smoke but then when i tried to open the throttle a little more i got to half stick the engine was real loud then as i came back off the throttle it cut out and it looks like it blew my glow plug. which leads me to these questions?

not a lot of smoke and the noise is that due to running it rich?
and why the damagedc glow plug? is this normal as it was new?
any suggestions for the header tank?

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05-04-2005 02:43 PM  12 years agoPost 14
andythilo

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Saffron Walden, Essex, UK

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Little or no smoke means it's running too lean. It'll also lead to a hot engine which is bad. Best bet is to richen it up and try again.

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05-04-2005 03:14 PM  12 years agoPost 15
MAH

rrApprentice

Galesburg, Il.

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Yep. No smoke and a burnt plug mean way too lean.
This may indicate a fuel flow problem. Just for the sake
of arguement remove your fuel filter. It may be plugged
or offering some constriction.

Try again but open up the IDLE need another FULL
turn. I have seen some people run these motors with
as many as 6 turns out on the idle needle. Wouldnt
hurt to open up the main needle another full turn as
well. You want to get on the too rich side. Then sneak
up on the correct mixture. Its a lot easier to do it from
the too rich side. A lot safer for your motor as well.

Making progress. At least its running.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

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05-05-2005 11:03 AM  12 years agoPost 16
gt900uk

rrKey Veteran

Scotland

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I broke my TT50 in on 7-8 turns out on the low speed ran it at about 6 i think. The high was 3.5 to 4 i belive. Dont have it anymore so can be more exact sorry. Be careful running the engine with no load on it like that you dont want to damage it. You should maybe get headloaders or do the tuning at the field with the blades on. Are you sure u are getting pressure from the exhaust to the fuel tank?

This Heli Will Self Destruct In Five Seconds!!

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05-07-2005 02:57 PM  12 years agoPost 17
CANUK

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St Laurent Manitoba Canada

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I Had a similar Problem. TT50 always ran too lean brand new and ate up glow plugs. turned out tho be the factory fuel lines from TT

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05-11-2005 04:22 PM  12 years agoPost 18
Leehollingworth

rrNovice

Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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cheers for all the help guys, i have now changed out all the standard fuel lines and got the heli tuned bettter that ever today but have to keep chasing the needles but i guess that is due to it still breaking in (still on my 1st gallon), stilla long way to mastering that hover

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05-11-2005 04:25 PM  12 years agoPost 19
Leehollingworth

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Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England

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BTW, as i increase the RPM so the blades just start spinning the tail rotor seems to snag a little, so i made sure the belt was tight but still happens but when i turn the main rotor by hand its fine could this have somthing to do with drive train? it seems fine at higher RPM

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05-11-2005 05:00 PM  12 years agoPost 20
MAH

rrApprentice

Galesburg, Il.

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It will take a full gallon for break in and two gallons
to be considered completely broken in. Just treat it gently
and keep it rich until then. This motor doesnt require
a lean mixture to produce power. Its at its best at a
rather rich setting. More so than would be considered
normal for an OS.

As you are just hovering at this point the low speed (idle)
needle will have much more effect than the high speed needle.
BTW, as i increase the RPM so the blades just start spinning the tail rotor seems to snag a little
A couple of things can cause this. A too loose belt. A too tight belt.
A defective belt. Having extra twist in the belt...3/4 turn of twist
instead of 1/4 turn.

I worked on a 30V1 for a local fellow that acted a bit odd. It did
some of what you describe but also flew a bit odd. Finally discovered
he had twisted the belt in the wrong direction. This made the tail
rotor rotate in the wrong direction. But he also had the grips on
backwards and set the servo and gyro up to work that way. It
flew that way but you could tell something wasnt quite right.

The autorotation clutch can grab and cause those symptoms as
well. The usual cure is to thoroughly clean the rollers and
SPARINGLY lube with some Tri-Flo or ATF.

Mike Hammer
Galesburg,Il

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HelicopterBeginners Corner › TT50 engine Trouble
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