With all my spelling mistakes, you can just imagine how long it takes me to weed through the syntax fixing my typos!

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

Not to say the coding is difficult but the business rules we use get kinda convoluted so it takes some inside knowledge

Thats the only thing protecting my job eg coding for fire alarm panels (at the moment)
as we have to follow a standard and you have to be able to understand how the rules must be applied plus the way the installer work etc

Coding is not the skill its the design and understanding of the enviroment that it will be working in.

That is the skill that will put bread on the table

Coding is not the skill

Sad but true. That is why there is so much bad software around. We've even grown to accept that software is full of bugs, user interfaces are inconsistent and programs consume resources for breakfast so much that we need the faster computers of today to be able to run it.

Coding is a skill but it is not valued as such hence everybody thinks they can do it. It's like driving a car, not everybody is good at it but that doesn't stop us from doing it.

Tim

Bah Delphi -- i hated delphi (I hate Eiffel more though).

C# is a great language esspecially after C#v2 comes out with generics ect. that said rather slow but for RAD its great I can honestly see this overtaking java if it already hasn't (java does nothing very well).

(java does nothing very well).

Sure it does, it was the meat behind the Microsoft antitrust trial, it was the ONLY serious attempt to shatter the Barrier to entry of an alternate OS to windows.

That's because it cross-platforms better than anything else out there. It's the mother of all middleware. I'm sure it will be eclipsed some day but Java served a very usefull purpose and has earned it's place in history.

A lot of programmers today are Syntax monsters, they can code for hours on end and create tons of applications on the fly, that said there are a lot of them that haven't the slightest idea when it comes to proper software design.

Good carpenters are the ones who know how to measure the Board right the first time and get it bang on. Simply knowing the mechnics of swinging a hammer doesn't make you a good carpenter. Kind of the same with coding, get your design theory and best practice knowledge down, the coding is rudamentary after that.

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

I don't know. Do you? Do you have any proof that this is the case for this particular instance?

Do you really think if you peel back the onion layers you won't find M$ funding this "independent" study?

--Paul

TREX 450
Bergen Intrepid Gasser x2

Two problems with your argument:

1. Java is not an operating system. It never has been, and never will be. It is a language and a programming framework. Sun would like to call it a platform, but that has never been realized mostly due to the size and complexity of the language specification.

2. I have used Java extensively and will attest to the fact that it's a royal pain in the ass to work with as soon as you need to step outside of the boundries of the language. I can develop solutions much faster in C# (or managed C++ if I want pointers to play with) than I ever could in Java because the language and frameworks are more flexible.

Apropo to nothing: I have never seen a language without pointers throw so many "invalid pointer" exceptions in all of the years that I have been programming!

(java does nothing very well).

Sure it does, it was the meat behind the Microsoft antitrust trial, it was the ONLY serious attempt to shatter the Barrier to entry of an alternate OS to windows.

--Paul

TREX 450
Bergen Intrepid Gasser x2

Been developing Windows applications in Visual C++ for 12 years. Not a bad job if you didn't have to deal with customers constantly changing their minds about new features .
.

I picked a hell of a day to quit drinking

Avant EFX
Freya EVO

also if you only need pointers for a block or two there is always C#'s unsafe blocks or if its substantialC++ (even unmanaged) interopablity is a snap.

I'm sorry i am a .net junky

pilotError- I live in Yonkers City. Its right after the Bronx. If I cant find any job in NYC or near my place I will look in other cities or states and Im willing to relocate especially now that taxes here are rising.

Dan C - I like that idea on embedded systems.

Right now Im using MS Visual Studio .NET and I just installed SQL server and Virtual PC on my computer which I got from my school for free (MSDN academic alliance),

I know C# and Java came from C++ but how do you compare C# to C++? Is it totally different from C++ (like variable declarations, etc.)?

So heres my list on what I should do:
1. learn C
2. .NET
3. SQL

many thanks to all who replied

for some links to tools etc and a good starting point have a look at
http://www.microchip.com

from there you can download free of charge developement enviroments eg an assembler and linker etc and then there are also C compilers that you can download that are valid for a couple of months.

Another link would be http://www.iar.se they are one of the euro high end tool vendors and have a few nice tools

I think they have tools for something like 20 odd micro's architetures

Compilers and developent enviroments
MakeApp device drivers for different chips eg sets up serial comms ports etc
VisualState a UML style software tool that will allow you to model the system veryify the system works as expected and then generates a code framework eg sets up a pointer table and writes the function prototypes which you have then to populate and tie in events to interrupts etc.

Also have a look at things like LINT people know of it, talk about using it but don't seem to, it will help sort out you coding but unfortuantly do nothing to correct a poor design

There are loads of hard realtime operating systems as well, but it sepends on the product your working on as some use them some products don' t

Have a look at Real time operating systems like CMX, Vxworks, nuclieus, a good one and freely available with a book is ucos-ii that in its latest incarnation is certified to a avaition standard in the US

http://www.ucos-ii.com
http://www.cmx.com/

have a look at these info sites etc

http://www.embedded.com
http://www.eet.com has a good section on 2004 salaries etc and developing trends on out sourceing to low cost regions etc

Most embedded jobs I have come across want knowledge of electronics as well so if your a student you will have to perhap look at that as well.

The typical type of work you do depends on the size of the company eg working for Model avionics producing throttle jockeys etc may only a one man company and therefore you only get to travel to heli related events representing your kit.( a dirty job but someone has to do it)

I have been lucky enough to work in India, Thailand, US, Germany, Holland, france.

I would look and see first of all if an embedded softies job pays the same as a PC softies as I haven't a clue on which is the most profitable in the US.

I do know as a rough planning figure you pay about $100K in total ( taxes office tools etc ) to employee an engineer in the US, $80K in the UK and roughly $18 an hour or under $40K in India

PaulH-MA,

It Seems you missed my point and mis-interpreted me. I am in no way claiming Java is an OS. Let's look at what I said together and I'll explain the context. I mistakenly assumed other developers would be familliar with the crux of the M$ anti trust trial and didn't get into the details, just stated a main fact.

Here's what I posted that you quoted.

"Sure it does, it was the meat behind the Microsoft antitrust trial, it was the ONLY serious attempt to shatter the Barrier to entry of an alternate OS to windows."

Now, on a simple read by someone unfammilliar with the details, you may assume I call JAVA an OS, but others familliar with the launguage and case will see that I only claim Java was an "ATTEMPT to SHATTER the BARRIER TO ENTRY of an ALTERNATE OS"

Let me explain. 95% (Aprox) of all software on shelves in computer stores is written for the windows OS, about 4%(aprox) for the Mac and less than 1%(aprox) for fringe OS's.

Because of this very reason, a company cannot reasonably expect to deploy a new OS on the market and expect it to be successful without a set of supporting applications. These applications simply don't exist yet and developers will not embrace a new OS if it means developing applications that will not sell because no market share yet exists.

This is know as "The Barrier to Entry" and became almost a legal term during the trial. It is crucial to understand this to understand the trial.

It's a chicken and the egg sceniario. Without apps, the OS fails, and without the OS, no apps get written for it.

Now, if your with me this far, Here's what you missed (All in the paragraph below the one you jumped on, took out of context, misunderstood, and then mispoke on)

First, as I clearly stated, Java is Middleware, That means that it sits as an interpreter between the OS and the Application. In the Middle, hence the term middleware. "softWARE" that sit's in the "MIDDLE"

Not an OS in any way. Middleware.

Now, the beautiful thing about Java when Sun first realeased it was that it was a small portable engine with versions for all availiable OS's that allowed developers (That's you) to be able to write a program once, and have it be able to run on "ANY OS THAT SUPPORTS JAVA"

Now, what's so special about this? Well, it opens up market share to developers who can now sell there program to ALL computer users, not just Windows users.

If developers do this, then slowly, the % of space devoted to Windows software will shrink and space for Java apps would grow and then anyone could write A COMPLETELY NEW NEVER BEFORE SEEN OS, And as long as it included a JAVA layer, all current applications would run without a problem.

If you got tired of the Monopoly like practices of your current OS provider, or, of you just get tired of having to reboot, you could switch at any time without losing your work.

You could try out a new OS monthly and never have to worry about accessing your data.

Now, to address your second statment, you said it best yourself when you said " as soon as you need to step outside of the boundries of the language. "

Well, a screwdriver works great too until you need to cut a board in half. There are a great many launguages for developers to use, affectionatly, we refer to them as tools. Get another tool if the tool you are using isn't designed to do the job. I Claimed Java was good at what it was created for and the fact that it was a brave attempt to take on the M$ Monopoly. It will be known as a hinge in the anti-trust trial.

I strongly recommend you read "U.S. V. Microsoft - The inside story of the landmark case" By Joel Brinkley and Steve Lohr of the New York Times. They lay the whole case out day by day and refer to all newspaper clippings from each day and describe what happened in court that produced each story.

Although not a very Tech savvy Judge, Tomas Penfield Jackson showed a great deal of insight and was able to understand the "Barrier to Entry" very clearly. Essencially, this is why M$ lost.

Sorry for the history lesson but you misunderstood me and misquoted me and then assumed I was not familliar with the subject and then took the whole thing out of context and decided to mislead others into thinking Java doesn't do what it was DESIGNED to do very well.

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

I Claimed Java was good at what it was created for and the fact that it was a brave attempt to take on the M$ Monopoly.

Java was written for set top boxes, Java is not used in set top boxes (its just too bloody slow).

Yes the principles behind java were sound, its just what they came up with that is a bit 'limiting' . Viva .net .

Now who wants to hear why open source will never take off (heheh )

LOL Close enough!

It was for Consumer electronic devices that could be universally controlled by a handheld remote..... So all types of devices, not just set top boxes.... They envisioned things like a fridge that would email you a notification to pick up milk on the way home from work, stuff like that, the whole realm of remote automation.

But as you said, not quite on the mark. It's easy in hindsight to denounce Java and then look at something Spanky new like .net and say this is the future, but at one time that's exactly how we looked at Java. There was a time that Java was seen as cutting edge and sure that time has come and gone and we have better tools now but whose to say that we won't have new tools again before .net takes off?

There are lot's of Java applications out there, I'm sure there will be ton's of .net, but what's after that?

I'd love to hear your take on Open Source, ever see Revolution OS?

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

none of the set top boxes I ever worked on used java just plain of C

eSmith,

Perhaps I did misconstrue what you were trying to say. I am well aware of the whole Microsoft antitrust trial -- I read quite a lot about it while it was going on. I apologize for taking your comments out of context.

However, I would not call Java a serious attempt to shatter that barrier though. I have used Java since version 1.0 was released. While it did try to abstract enough of the underlying O.S. to provide applications with the ability to run anywhere, the developer's mantra quickly became, "Write once, debug EVERYWHERE!" I have found through personal experience that this is still the case even with the very latest version of Java. It's even worse if you're using an application server like WebLogic, as each one has a different way of accomplishing the same task.

As for Java being middleware, I disagree. Middleware is supposed to be software that connects two otherwise unrelated applications. If you consider software that I write and the O.S. to be unrelated applications, then yes, Java meets that definition.

I also disagree with your statement that Java suceeded to meet its goals. Java, as both a language and a framework (platform) was designed to allow a developer to write an application once and run it anywhere that a JVM is available.

A project that I recently worked on involved converting a "legacy" application to Java from a mixture of MFC/C++ and FORTRAN. Our team learned that Java is extremely inefficient and required a significant investment in Q.A. The original application took about 60 MB and ran on every version of Windows since 95. The resulting Java application would only run on Windows 2000 and XP Professional (not Home!) and consumed about 600 MB because of all the auxilary libraries. We also ended up leaving the FORTRAN code alone and writing JNI wrappers around it so performance wouldn't suffer even further.

Needless to say the customers were NOT happy. Apparently they were told by someone else that Java was a panacea, and believed it. When we educated them about what we went through during the porting effort, they were shocked that it wasn't as easy as they had been lead to believe.

So, if I have a bit of a sour taste in my mouth from working with Java, please do not let it affect your opinion. To me, Java is a nice toy, and nothing more. I am not denouncing it in hindsight -- I have criticized it since the very beginning, and will continue to do so until the problems have been solved. I never thought that Java was the future of anything.

Many of the industry rags I receive at work report on what's hot and what's not in the military (our primary customer). The .Net framework and its supporting languages have already come of age. They think it's great that even scripting languages like Perl and Python have been plugged into .Net.

I don't think new tools will be available before .Net takes off. It already has. New tools are leveraging .Net in weird and wonderful ways every day.

--Paul

TREX 450
Bergen Intrepid Gasser x2

.Net takes off. It already has.

Can I get an Amen!

Long live Bill for without him and his homeys, I have no job.

Si

-------------
Simon Lockington

Paul, the background helps, I did detect a bit of venom in your posts, Thought it was Me!!!

Glad to hear it's not. It's clear you have some first hand knowledge on the issues with Java. I can understand that, I've had software not perform as expected before and it's a pain to try to work with tools that frustrate more than help. My Java knowledge comes from playing with it more than anything else, never developed with it at work. I have a friend using it to create Palm applications (Shareware) and he's been fairly lucky with it.

The bulk of my development is now done in Delphi and that's because I'm an old hack and haven't spent time learning new coding since pascal was all the rage! (let's keep that a secret!)

Java didn't meet it's goals, you are correct, I'm saying it secured it's place in history. different subject. I think we are both right.

Java as middleware....? Well we are just splitting hairs there, I still think it is but won't call you wrong for not thinking the same way. It's all semantics anyway.

As for .net, you may be right there too, I really hope not though.

-eSmith.

http://www.edmheli.ca

Nope, no venom here!

I know several people here at work who think Java is the absolute best language for every situation. It's really hard to talk with zealots like them, because they try to steer every programming discussion into advocacy for Java. So when you sounded like you were headed in that direction, I jumped before I looked. My bad!

Here's a scary new product for you: http://www.tmt.com/net.htm Pascal on .Net! Woohoo!

--Paul

TREX 450
Bergen Intrepid Gasser x2

everything is on .net i think i even saw prolog .net a while ago -- now THAT is scary.